General Suggestion - Maintenance Should have less "Self Defense' Limits - Denied

[[Triggred]Perisnot]

What are you suggesting? - Im Suggesting Maintenance should have LESS but not total elimination of the "self defense" rule.

How would this change better the server? - Hello my name is Clawz, at the time of making this i am a MA. I know this will be declined but that's not the point, the point is to let command know how us maintenance feel and why maintenance is mostly inactive and tired of the nonsense rules. One of the things that troubles me as being Maintenance is the Self Defense Rules.. Sure, we are level 1-2 personell with low clearance and " non-Combatant" i get it.. however there is many problems with the non-combanatant quota and here is why--- If 1 Singular D Class is Threatening you with a gun and you try and kill them because its technically self-defense.. Command will Complain and Strike you because you're " Non-Combatant " until they start shooting bullets into your skull, by that time your dead and have to wait for NLR which is 2 minutes.. so then you walk back to the area on a defcon 4 and oh guess what? now hes there again and keeps killing you while threatening you but you cant do nothing because you're " non-Combatant." Another Example of something is, if you're in the incinerator room and you have 3 bags out and some random mingey d class comes and destroys your bags that you spent 10 minutes collecting then guess what.. you cant kill them for breaking your shit, So then Maintenance people get frustrated and flag off the job or maybe dont even come back on because of these stupid self defense rules. If there was less of a limit i think protecting your trash bags should be called "D.Y.G" Defend Your Garbage, Automatically you can kill any d class that is around your garbage and threatening you or breaks it, This protocol could only be activated during Defcon 3 or below.. and for the other problem with D Class threatening you.. i believe you should be able to defend yourself only during defcon 3 and below and if its defcon 4 or 5 then you're back to non-combative to be fair. Like i said i know this will be declined but i want you to stop and discuss ways to make maintenance feel more important and maybe more people will flag on if these rules weren't so damn tight, Y'Know? 

Are there any disadvantages of making this change to the server? If so, explain. - Disadvantages of this change would there may be RDM, and of course we all dont want that.. so if any problems arise there should be either video evidence and a penalty if anyone is caught lying in the admin sit.. this may stop liers. another disadvantage would there will be many complaints about this change by D Class, minges And/Or Gensec.. like i said i know i cant change a thing but if all my maintenance friends fought for this change i believe we could get a change and a voice.. maybe our branch might be respected and might have more active people and better RP 

Who would this change mostly benefit? - Mostly it would benefit Maintenance, Partly for Gensec. It would benefit Maintenance because we might actually get better numbers if we were able to defend ourselves during DEFCON 3 and below due to the fact people wont flag off when theres crazy shit happening and they know they cant defend themselves without some mingy D Class coming along and threatening them and shooting them.. its just unfair and i believe it would help this branch and the server to have maintenance on.. it would help with RP.. Of Course theres should be LIMITATIONS to these Rules, Maintenance can defend during DEFCON 3 but can NOT go to D-Block and help GENSEC, they can NOT go to HCZ and help MTF, they can NOT help kill CI unless they're being threanted by only 1 of them. but of course those are only ideas, the admins or maintenance command can come up with better rules.. but please give this change a voice, it would better RP for not only Maintenance but also the Foundation due to the fact people will actually take maintenance seriously and may FLAG on.

Please link any workshop content, screenshots, or anything that you think may be helpful to those who view this suggestion - N/A however i will say, ask around.. ask how enlisted feel with this, that may give you an idea of how others feel about this self defense rule.

[CanOBeanz]

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

[[GL] Mike]

13 minutes ago, CanOBeanz said:

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

 

[pixalgamer99]

-support how is staff supposed to know, from the staffs perspective you just randomly shot a D class, the system we use is fine and is very easy for staff to use but changing it will make sure much harder and how do we judge what being threatened by a gun is, is it if they command you to do something because then they would have to use the ingame chat and can’t talk for staff to know, is it if they are aiming a gun at you because then HOW IS STAFF GONNA KNOW

[[Triggred]Perisnot]

17 hours ago, pixalgamer99 said:

-support how is staff supposed to know, from the staffs perspective you just randomly shot a D class, the system we use is fine and is very easy for staff to use but changing it will make sure much harder and how do we judge what being threatened by a gun is, is it if they command you to do something because then they would have to use the ingame chat and can’t talk for staff to know, is it if they are aiming a gun at you because then HOW IS STAFF GONNA KNOW

@pixalgamer99 Something tells me you read a paragraph, then decided to write this. I said they're can be ways to tell if its RDM or not, 1 by video evidence during a situation.. if a d class calls a sit, then one side or both sides will need to present evidence otherwise there's nothing to be done, or staff/command can come up with better rules but not total elimination of this "self defense" rule. 

End Note: i dont mind that you -support, as i suspect this to not even get accepted, however i do ask you to actually read the whole summary next time, thanks.

Edited January 2, 2021 by [Triggred]Perisnot

[Squash]

Why only Maintenance, I hate these suggestions that exclude other branches.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Squash

[Wheatley the moron]

+ Suppport if all the non  combat get it

 

[[Triggred]Perisnot]

12 hours ago, Squash said:

Why only Maintenance, I hate these suggestions that exclude other branches.

@Squash Hello sir, if you read the whole summary you will see how i said it will benefit not only maintenance but other branches.. if this somehow does get accepted it will help MTF because Maintenance may become more active if they dont have to flag off everytime because they cant defend themselves properly.. by having them on they can help MTF with Cells that require Fixing, Fixing Lights, Etc.. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by [Triggred]Perisnot

[Alexxxx]

On 1/1/2021 at 12:06 AM, CanOBeanz said:

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

 

[Pills]

+/- Support

-Maintenance Command will be talking about this

 

[pixalgamer99]

On 1/1/2021 at 7:24 PM, [Triggred]Perisnot said:

@pixalgamer99 Something tells me you read a paragraph, then decided to write this. I said they're can be ways to tell if its RDM or not, 1 by video evidence during a situation.. if a d class calls a sit, then one side or both sides will need to present evidence otherwise there's nothing to be done, or staff/command can come up with better rules but not total elimination of this "self defense" rule. 

End Note: i dont mind that you -support, as i suspect this to not even get accepted, however i do ask you to actually read the whole summary next time, thanks.

yea no more work for staff isnt a good idea when it comes to something that doesn’t need to be changed, and I’ve been in site on other servers where the rules needed me to record evidence and it was incredibly annoying the one time I just wanted to make a clear sit  and they said no you need to have video evidence,

 

also WHY IS this only for MAINTANCE it’s not the only non combatant class and the others help people so you can’t use the excuse well it will help MTF with fixing CCs 

Edited January 3, 2021 by pixalgamer99

[[GL] Fizz-y Soda]

-/+

I mean yes, btw add research to this change too, but like I agree with the fact that sits will be more difficult and annoying to deal with. If you have a solid rule in place then I'll change my support. 

I don't think being able to kill d class more often will improve activity on these jobs. Not being trapped in bunks will...

Edited January 3, 2021 by [GL] Fizz-y Soda

[Rito]

+/- Support 

I can see myself doing this on D-Class, taking advantage of non combatants as I need to harm them before they can attack back, I have to say that this is probably frustrating to a lot of people that are just here to have fun and RP.

But think about it, it's nice and all if you can shoot D-Class first but what about CI? If they simply want a hostage and you start firing at them? That would make less chances of CI getting hostages from raids.

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by vSquishyv

[Sparkle]

3 hours ago, vSquishyv said:

But I think that before making this suggestion, you should have told Maintenance command about it first, tell them how you feel about this rule, you know, having a good long talk with a maintenance command about this so they decide of something, rather than coming up with this and Maintenance command or even any other Non combatant branch command disagreeing with this. Also think about it, it's nice and all if you can shoot D-Class first but what about CI? If they simply want a hostage and you start firing at them? That would make less chances of CI getting hostages from raids.

They did. While I would've wanted this to wait before posting, it's here now and I'm not gonna ask for it to be retracted. We already talked with SA regarding possibilities and had a meeting to say any thoughts enlisted had about the issue. This is ongoing and will hopefully have a resolution that will be better for all of us.

EDIT: Quick clarification. We kept CI in mind during the discussion. While I cannot give definitives on anything, I did want people to know they aren't being left out.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Sparkle

[Coltable]

-/+ Support Not sure on this, I understand that getting ah "fucked over" by Dclass/CI can be frustrating but from my understanding senior staff/SMT aren't keen on removing none combatant branches restrictions that focus around combat, and I can understand why really, People don't want branches becoming copy's of each other, we want them to have their own unique pros and cons to being apart of said branch. I mean your meant to join MTF/Gensec for combat and Utility/Research for RP.

In my own personally opinion the reason why I think utility branches got more restrictions was to stop individuals from taking advantage of being in a non combatant branch but still running around chasing D-class or CI. Now if yourself or Utility HCMD can come up with a new set of rules that lower the restrictions but still maintain a balance as to not allow new/current players to abuse said system I would be in support of. 

Have a discussion with Foundation HCMD and CI HCMD and try get the majority of the servers command inputs on the matter, then put everything into a collective document and showcase it to Site-Admin/O5/SMT for approval.

[NeoID]

On 12/31/2020 at 6:06 PM, CanOBeanz said:

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

 

13 minutes ago, Coltable said:

-/+ Support Not sure on this, I understand that getting ah "fucked over" by Dclass/CI can be frustrating but from my understanding senior staff/SMT aren't keen on removing none combatant branches restrictions that focus around combat, and I can understand why really, People don't want branches becoming copy's of each other, we want them to have their own unique pros and cons to being apart of said branch. I mean your meant to join MTF/Gensec for combat and Utility/Research for RP.

In my own personally opinion the reason why I think utility branches got more restrictions was to stop individuals from taking advantage of being in a non combatant branch but still running around chasing D-class or CI. Now if yourself or Utility HCMD can come up with a new set of rules that lower the restrictions but still maintain a balance as to not allow new/current players to abuse said system I would be in support of. 

Have a discussion with Foundation HCMD and CI HCMD and try get the majority of the servers command inputs on the matter, then put everything into a collective document and showcase it to Site-Admin/O5/SMT for approval.

I agree with both points. I feel that they can have "Revamped" restrictions, but there would still have to be some heavy restrictions. As shooting isn't really Utility's thing. Getting "fucked over" happens to every person in every branch. That's kindof just how the system works. In very different ways.

Edited January 4, 2021 by NeoID

[[GL] Dtscalice]

On 12/31/2020 at 6:06 PM, CanOBeanz said:

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

It's the same with medical from what I have been seeing simply because we have to wait to be attacked by a gun or Weapon before we can fight back, Maintenance And Medical both dont have enough HP for that in the first place

[Balancer]

+Support

As someone who started the server with maintenance and had a couple staff run-ins, I believe this a lot. If you follow the self-defense rules fully, you wont even have time to draw your weapon when someone shoots first. I don't know how this will turn out, but in the end I still do believe that the self-defense rules either need to be modified, or non-combatants should not be allowed to be freely killed.

[MattOminigo3]

On 12/31/2020 at 11:06 PM, CanOBeanz said:

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

 

[[GL] Fryingpan36]

+Support but they might need to make it more strict because Maintenance already shoot me if I say hello to them with my gun on safety. 

sometimes

Edited January 15, 2021 by [GL] Fryingpan36

[Rabbit]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:06 PM, CanOBeanz said:

+Support

I can see expanding the self defense rules to include responding aggressively to any threats made by people holding weapons (not including enacting fear RP obviously), and also to the destruction of garbage bags.

You guys have done a pretty good job within your current self defense restrictions, so I think yall deserve some more conditions to be added to your ROE.

+Support I've only been back for about a week but the Rp interactions i've had with non-combatants has been amazing and should be rewarded, but if things get out of hand again it should be reversed quickly

[Igneous]

This is more of a Site Admin issue for now, so if changes want to be made to this rule please go through the proper channels of Site Administration, and then after a decision has been made bring it to SMT.

[Igneous]

Denied. The SCP-RP SMT has decided against adding this suggestion for performance reasons, the benefit to the server, or another unstated reason.