Apes appeal

[APE]

 

Your In-game Name:

APE

Your SteamID:

 STEAM_0:0:485925174

The admin's name in-game:

Weiss

What warning did you receive:

RDM

When did you receive this warning:

30 Minutes ago.

Please give a description of the situation that led to the warning:

Walked into HCZ with the ancient Enlisted model, was encountered by an HSU, he told me to leave, I said hold on. At the time I was turning down my teamspeak volume,  I tabbed back In game and he was cuffing me, so I told him to stop right again, backed up, continued to tell him to stop. He did not stop so in order to not be FailRPed and cuffed I killed the HSU. This being my only option as the protocal for running away from arrests in Nu7 is killing so it was either be cuffed in FailRP or be RDMed. I chose neither.

Why do you think this warn was false:

I was on a custom job and was allowed in HCZ, using a name with 'CPL" in it, as you know CPLs can be in HCZ with an escort or on a patrol. I requested the HSU wait for explanation, as he had absolutely zero way of knowing whether or not I could have been escorting or on patrol, maybe even lost, he had no clue. All he had to do was wait for my answer but instead he impatiently tried to cuff me, which I rightfully denied and shot him. Ontop of this, the admin who took the HSU's sit, "Islandtoad" was told by the HSU to contact a different admin to take the sit, only because Islandtoad was a security member. Now the Senior Admin said no rules were broken, but Weiss (who was called in) thought differently, and hardly let me defend a case, insisting on interrupting me which did indeed get me pissed off. Not lying, I was more than annoyed. Brought to a sit for not doing anything wrong, having the sit maker request a new staff after not liking his first results, and now not being able to speak when I know the rules just as well as anyone else. Summary is I went into HCZ on a custom class, was stopped and asked to leave, told the unit to hold on, said hold on about 5 times over a long period, showed zero aggression or eagerness to fight until the HSU trying to cuff me would not stop and let me explain why I was allowed to be there. The HSU acted impatiently, did not know my circumstance, and acted on his own accord. If anything if he wound up cuffing me I could have made a sit for Failrp. My original admin deemed that I did nothing wrong, but the next one who luckily had a much higher staff rank thought otherwise.  

Evidence the warning is false: https://medal.tv/clips/4cE7HgIsr3Hsj/W1KZ9u3OEmHQ 

This was his clip, as you can see I have a vape out and am chewing food, and tell him multiple times that I will kill him if he were to keep wrongfully cuffing me. If he simply waited 5 more second I could have told him my situation but he thought it better otherwise. Also, Weiss, I think its proper procedure to let one speak when you are about to warn them and they disagree. However you decided to keep talking over me and that royally pissed me off. Forgive my profanity in any way, and my loud mic combined with my raised voice probably was annoying in game. However I would respect it if you used reason with warning me I would not have gotten so Gamer raged for lack of better words.  Do not get me wrong, I don't have many warns and I would gladly take a justified warn any day, but I have talked to many staff and they all said this warn is dog buns. I was on a CC as a CPL, Which means I could have been on a patrol or an escort, but rather than asking I was just being cuffed, and I tried to warn them many times to stop so that I could give an explanation but that obviously did not happen. Literally just logically thinking, all profanities and bias's aside, this would at most be an explanation in a sit since the HSU did not know what was going on, but somehow it was a warn for RDM. If you wanna go ahead and make a playerdiss warn for me calling this HSU a mofo then do that, at least that would have some ground. @Apple , a Super Admin, Same rank as Weiss, said that it should not be a warn. If I am getting falsely cuffed, I shoot, there is nothing else you can do besides keep yourself from being falsely cuffed.

Edited August 20, 2021 by APE

[Sprink]

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

[recon]

+ Support

While I do think you should not have killed the HSU and just let him cuff you so he can get warned for failRP, I understand why you shot him. The HSU should have known better then to just cuff you and treat you like you don't know anything. However, I don't know if Weiss not hearing you side is true since there is no evidence of that. If I was a admin taking this sit I would have just explained to the HSU that you are allowed in HCZ and then verbally warned you for killing him.

 

 

[I disappear]

+support

This is not RDM considering he had a reason to shoot him rather, if anything, it would be FailRP. Even then I would have just verbally warned you for that IMO since in the clip he does not know any of the circumstances to why you were there.

[Sixx]

4 minutes ago, Sprink said:

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

@WeissSince your the Admin that warned him, I would like to hear your reasoning. 

[[GL] Defplan]

+support
he didn't even let ape finish what he wanted to say

 

[Jack S]

10 minutes ago, recon said:

+ Support

While I do think you should not have killed the HSU and just let him cuff you so he can get warned for failRP, I understand why you shot him. The HSU should have known better then to just cuff you and treat you like you don't know anything. However, I don't know if Weiss not hearing you side is true since there is no evidence of that. If I was a admin taking this sit I would have just explained to the HSU that you are allowed in HCZ and then verbally warned you for killing him.

 

 

 

[Some Weeb]

9 minutes ago, Sprink said:

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

CPL's aren't allowed in HCZ unless escorted by NCO.

 

+support 

I find this warning to be very... Disappointing. The main reason being is that the HSU was jumping to conclusions in a instant which lead to a very much unwanted situation. I would wager this situation would've been resolved without issue if nobody jumped to conclusion's. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Other Colt]

+support

I mean come on, not only can you see Inviticus Sentry as job but he didn't even let you speak or explain yourself, especially since the gensec model has been changed about a week or 2 ago so HSU should've known better

[Cloaker]

15 minutes ago, Sprink said:

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

 

[Weiss]

In this case however I'd still disagree. The case at hand here did appear to be an excessive over escalation; While the HSU could have lessened this risk by being less forceful.
I'd also say the same thing for Ape in this scenario.  More than enough time was given explain "Hey, I'm allowed to be here or "Hey I'm undercover",  "Wait, this is  a CC", etc."  Rather than
a "Cuff me and I'll kill you" followed by Duel Augers. This appeared to be an attempt to escalate the situation rather than deescalate. 
Thus taking this in consideration, their prior record and previous confusions caused by going undercover. Rather than a verbal I choose to issue a formal.

On the interruption part. Whilst I did interrupt Ape at one point to respond to one of his points; He did notify me he'd like to 
continue talking in his manner of speaking. Which from my recollection I did let him keep talking where then I notified him
he'd be receiving a warn and may appeal it on the forum. 

 

[Darkfistt]

+ Support

Ape definitely should not have been warned here. The HSU could clearly see that he is on a CC in the clip and the HSU should know that Security Corporals are allowed in HCZ with perms AND instead of the HSU asking if he got perms, he went straight to cuffing him. The HSU was at fault here. Also Ape clearly stated that he had food in his mouth and he could not state the reason why he entered. 

Even if Ape was in the wrong, he still should have been given a verbal in my opinion.

[Mind Stone]

+Support

The situation was handled poorly on both sides. Lack of communication. The Nu7 should’ve been aware that Ape was allowed in HCZ as an undercover CPL (any CPL can be there) before attempting to detain him. I would like to point out that this is the 2nd time this has occurred. However in the prior scenario the Nu7 killed the security and didn’t even get a warn. 

[APE]

17 minutes ago, Weiss said:

In this case however I'd still disagree. The case at hand here did appear to be an excessive over escalation; While the HSU could have lessened this risk by being less forceful.
I'd also say the same thing for Ape in this scenario.  More than enough time was given explain "Hey, I'm allowed to be here or "Hey I'm undercover",  "Wait, this is  a CC", etc."  Rather than
a "Cuff me and I'll kill you" followed by Duel Augers. This appeared to be an attempt to escalate the situation rather than deescalate. 
Thus taking this in consideration, their prior record and previous confusions caused by going undercover. Rather than a verbal I choose to issue a formal.

On the interruption part. Whilst I did interrupt Ape at one point to respond to one of his points; He did notify me he'd like to 
continue talking in his manner of speaking. Which from my recollection I did let him keep talking where then I notified him
he'd be receiving a warn and may appeal it on the forum. 

 

Did I not say "Hold on" 4 maybe 5 or 6 times before informing him that if he continued to cuff me I would kill him? Do not pick and choose quotes, use the whole video and all that I said. I stood there in place for half the time telling him to wait, and after he pursued,  continued dodging his cuffs after giving warnings upon warnings. If I run, I get RDMED. If I get cuffed, then I get failRPed. I have talked to many and I did what I believe anyone would do if they had the same situation. I need you to directly quote and give me specific examples of these prior "incidences", because I have never once been brought to a sit for being undercover. I have MADE sits regarding it, but this is a unique issue. You say "if" he did this, but I did not and did not need to, not everyone has something to say on the spot, hence why I asked him to wait. If you are going to both pick and choose what words fit your case best, and make blanket statements about past actions without providing any concrete evidence and or facts to support them, then I would appreciate it if you would just not try to defend your stance at all. A defense made with only null and empty points is the same as having no defense at all. We'll see what happens I suppose, No hard feelings ofcourse.

Edited August 20, 2021 by APE

[Sprink]

29 minutes ago, Some minge said:

CPL's aren't allowed in HCZ unless escorted by NCO.

 

+support 

I find this warning to be very... Disappointing. The main reason being is that the HSU was jumping to conclusions in a instant which lead to a very much unwanted situation. I would wager this situation would've been resolved without issue if nobody jumped to conclusion's. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well they can be given perms by certain members of GenSec which the HSU did not ask if he did.

[xX_Assassin_Xx]

+support but white (since i can't use colors)

I don't see why he didn't try to contact security CMD if an enlisted was past the checkpoint, that is the Point of security CMD. to deal with mingy enlisted (which he wasn't an enlisted but undercover). I would have also given a verbal rather than formal. The HSU should have at least had more patience as they should be trained for that. HSU to me is a serious job and not having patience should make you unqualifiable for it.  Instead of trying to handle it himself, I'd rather him try to contact a security CMD if they're on.  If there is no CMD on, then he could possibly handle it himself

Edited August 20, 2021 by xX_Assassin_Xx

[Sparkle]

Both sides are in the wrong. The HSU for not giving you time to explain. You for resorting straight to death. You didn't want to put yourself in the crossroad of RDM or FailRP but that could be easily resolved through a staff call. Let the cuffing happen and things would still be in your favor. Verbal versus Formal is staff discretion if I remember correctly.

I'll pass you the +Support but that was extremely poor decision making. 

[IgnisNuts]

5 hours ago, Sprink said:

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

 

[th3]

6 hours ago, Sparkle said:

Both sides are in the wrong. The HSU for not giving you time to explain. You for resorting straight to death. You didn't want to put yourself in the crossroad of RDM or FailRP but that could be easily resolved through a staff call. Let the cuffing happen and things would still be in your favor. Verbal versus Formal is staff discretion if I remember correctly.

I'll pass you the +Support but that was extremely poor decision making. 

This 100%. Poor decision making played a huge part in this situation occurring. The worst thing that can happen is taking matters into your own hands when it can be resolved by a quick and easy staff call to get clarification. I would say however, that a formal warning is 100% needed, given that the person warned knows the rules and purposefully chose to rdm over calling staff.

-Support

[styx]

+support

all I wanted to say has already been said

[Kvist]

+SUPPORT

The definition of 'RDM' is Random Deathmatch. This wasn't random and it wasn't deathmatch, so by that logic alone this warning by necessity is required to be voided. The man was being assaulted, ie. the HSU was attempting to restrain him for little to no reason, so he responded with what he felt was his only option after he gave sufficient warning. 

The only OOC components of this are the fact that Ape was distracted by his Teamspeak volume and the fact he was eating. That impacted the roleplay, though the HSU was already quick with the handcuffing so I would argue it had a negligible effect. 

With all of the above being said, one could argue this was completely IC and there is no room for admin intervention.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Kvist

[Shin]

I'll be honest here, this "CPL" disguise needs to be put at an end, especially if you're going into HCZ. This may cause confusion and events like these happen. I'm just saying it right now to prevent future incidents like these and due to me dealing something similar to this a while ago.

I'm gonna leave no -Support/+Support. 

[Piller]

2 hours ago, Shin said:

I'll be honest here, this "CPL" disguise needs to be put at an end, especially if you're going into HCZ. This may cause confusion and events like these happen. I'm just saying it right now to prevent future incidents like these and due to me dealing something similar to this a while ago.

I'm gonna leave no -Support/+Support. 

I agree with this 100%. From my understanding, the GenSec undercover system is supposed to be used to make sure that GenSec enlisted, NCOs, and LCMD are doing a good job. However, it definitely seems to be more commonly used to instigate situations just like this. Sometimes the rank is even lower than CPL, so this causes even more of an issue.

With that being said, I have a few additional thoughts on the matter:

1. The HSU probably could have slowed down a bit.

2. Full out killing the HSU was a pretty big overreaction and didn't need to happen.

3. The disrespect was also unneeded. You cussed out the HSU and insulted him and from what I saw in the sit (granted I came towards the end), you were quite rude to Weiss. He barely interrupted you and you proceeded to angrily and loudly shush him and tell him to be quiet. It was completely uncalled for and very condescending.

-support

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Pillercat
Updated with more info

[Guinea Pig]

15 hours ago, recon said:

+ Support

While I do think you should not have killed the HSU and just let him cuff you so he can get warned for failRP, I understand why you shot him. The HSU should have known better then to just cuff you and treat you like you don't know anything. However, I don't know if Weiss not hearing you side is true since there is no evidence of that. If I was a admin taking this sit I would have just explained to the HSU that you are allowed in HCZ and then verbally warned you for killing him.

 

 

 

[Leafy]

+support

Definitely did not deserve the warn, you all just love powergaming.

Cringe.

1 hour ago, Pillercat said:

I can't fully respond at the moment, but I will say that I agree with this 100%. From my understanding, the GenSec undercover system is supposed to be used to make sure that enlisted, NCOs, and LCMD is doing a good job. However, it definitely seems to be more commonly used to instigate situations just like this. Sometimes the rank is even lower than CPL, so this causes even more of an issue.

 

I will most likely be editing this post later to provide a more detailed response.

Also this whole feature should not have been implemented in the first place.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Leafy