General Suggestion - Deleting the Blue Line - Denied

[Jameshi34]

What are you suggesting? - The removal of the blue line from lower D-Block and the rules that accompany it.

How would this change better the server? - Among a multitude of logistical reasons lies nearly every upper Gensec's opinion on this topic. For one, the D-Class never needed a buff, nor did Gensec need a nerf; to think such a thing would be nothing but ignorance to the facts that massive D-Block riots occur every single day, and D-Class escape every single day. D-Class can and have, escaped while Gensec was running with full force, and no one can deny this. This reason alone puts the Security SOP's explanation for this new rule aside. Not only does this new rule make Gensec's life as a whole much more difficult, but it also reduces the time MTF will have to monitor HCZ and deal with breached SCPs and GOI raids. There is already enough tension between Nu7 and Gensec, and we really don't need to be calling them in as much as we are already. Researchers will be at a loss in this scenario as well, as even when partial lockdown is called we won't be able to deal with threats behind the elevator, almost indefinitely multiplying the time partial lockdown or hands-up protocol would have to be called for. The main concern of my fellow Gensec is the inability to enforce partial lockdown effectively, please, if you won't listen to my plea, listen to the mass. The solution to this is to delete the pillars, or delete the line. This is not a dichotomy, it's sound in logic that we must be able to deal with any D-Class behind the pillars. For the D-Class to have 2 unreachable points in D-Block is nothing but absurd. We Gensec should have complete permission and the right to terminate D-Class breaking the rules of D-Block while they are in D-Block. With this line in effect, even medical will be put at a loss for RP. Our Enlisted depend on the Medbay with their lives. The surgery RP is great, however, when we have D-Class with snipers and assault rifles that are unable to be killed, our Enlisted will die in masses. Without our Enlisted I fear that Medics won't have enough RP for their time on this server to be considered interesting, without even approaching being fun. Of course the obvious answer is station Medics closer to D-Block, or even inside D-Block, however this removes the surgery aspect from the Medical's arsenal. The benefits are recognizable, as are the disadvantages. Please weigh them at your own discretion.

Are there any disadvantages of making this change to the server? If so, explain. - D-Class are negated the benefit of being invincible.

Who would this change mostly benefit? - Security, MTF, Researchers, and Medical Staff will all benefit from this change.

[Jack S]

I would like to say if we can't get it removed let certain classes under certain circumstances cross (Riot control, jugg,, CCs with CMD perms) To go and attack them at least, and during partial.

+/- Support

D-block was fine beforehand, why does it need a line we can't cross, that's taking away our area.

edit: Catsro and rang make a fair case. I feel we should now wait.

Edited September 25, 2020 by [GL] loudyfam (Jack S)

[A Fallout Marine]

+/-Support

I get what the blue line is trying to solve, but it's causing more problems than it is being a solution.  But there are some good points to keep it, so let's give it a week or so, eh? 

Edited September 25, 2020 by A Fallout Marine

[Sixx]

2 minutes ago, [GL] loudyfam (Jack S) said:

I would like to say if we can't get it removed let certain classes under certain circumstances cross (Riot control, jugg,, CCs with CMD perms) To go and attack them at least, and during partial.

+Support

D-block was fine beforehand, why does it need a line we can't cross, that's taking away our area.

D-Block was fine beforhand, I dont understand why this changed happened. With this new change it makes it so D-Class was a huge advantge by sitting behind the elevator and snipping us  thus maing us loose D-Block more and causing people to have less RP. 

 

[MiniLeopard]

+Support

I don't mind the blue line staying but we need more "freedom" like: Certain ranks/jobs going past it or getting attacked by d class who like hiding behind the elevator.

[Spud]

+Support

D Block was fine before the blue line. It gives D Class a large advantage over GENSEC.

[Stage]

+Support
At first i thought it was just for the event, in which case it was fine, but we dont need it for everyday dblock, its unnecessary and just gives dclass a upgrade they really didnt need.

[Beepis]

+ Support

Doesnt have a use and gives Dclass an unfair advantage

[Catsro]

This suggestion was pretty laughable if you had seen todays riot. Not even explosives nor a man with a minigun with 500 hp and 100 armor couldn't even stop you guys. If D-Class can shoot at you then you can shoot back at them from that angle.  D-Class can pretty much get deleted in about 3-5 shots. We made this change and it hasn't even been out for 24 hours and there is already a suggestion out please just wait a bit and see how this change goes into effect.

[Lannie]

1 hour ago, Sixx said:

D-Block was fine beforhand, I dont understand why this changed happened. With this new change it makes it so D-Class was a huge advantge by sitting behind the elevator and snipping us  thus maing us loose D-Block more and causing people to have less RP. 

 

+/-Support 
Honestly, it would make sense to have other units be able to go across. D-class have been able to riot by sitting behind that elevator before, sniping us out. This could balance out D-block, but as of right now I still feel as if this puts D-class on the power side.

Edit: Im on the fence about it, going to let it sit for a week or two, I think this is more of a case over just throwing down something without giving information on why it could be beneficial. Not saying this is SMT's fault, but its more of just it came outta nowhere, but we'll probably get used to it. Ive heard a few arguments on both sides, and honestly think its something that needs to still be further determined/used before immediately voicing a FINAL opinion.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Lantard

[Rangiatea]

3 members of SMT held a event for D class to riot. we needed to supply them with stupidly good weapons (and even 500 HP and 100 ARMOR) to have a chance to beat you guys, you are not even giving this a chance but when D class complained about their fences i dont remember a single gensec not saying "just give it a bit" this wont be permanent if we feel it keeps D block unbalanced 

I even gassed GENSEC to give D class a chance, yet D class still failed

It hasnt even been 3 hours, do you really need to get point blank range to deal with 100 100 classes (100 100 being a CC most D class are not even near 200 total points)

[Jack S]

4 minutes ago, Rangiatea said:

3 members of SMT held a event for D class to riot. we needed to supply them with stupidly good weapons (and even 500 HP and 100 ARMOR) to have a chance to beat you guys, you are not even giving this a chance but when D class complained about their fences i dont remember a single gensec not saying "just give it a bit" this wont be permanent if we feel it keeps D block unbalanced 

I even gassed GENSEC to give D class a chance, yet D class still failed

That was you? That scared me, but you guys make a fair case, I feel we shoul dwait a bit.

[Sixx]

5 minutes ago, Rangiatea said:

3 members of SMT held a event for D class to riot. we needed to supply them with stupidly good weapons (and even 500 HP and 100 ARMOR) to have a chance to beat you guys, you are not even giving this a chance but when D class complained about their fences i dont remember a single gensec not saying "just give it a bit" this wont be permanent if we feel it keeps D block unbalanced 

I even gassed GENSEC to give D class a chance, yet D class still failed

It hasnt even been 3 hours, do you really need to get point blank range to deal with 100 100 classes (100 100 being a CC most D class are not even near 200 total points)

Yeah fair point, but maybe making it so WO+ could pass or something would be nice. 

[Jameshi34]

I deleted the quote thing and don't know how to re-add it I'm new to forums.

I'll agree with you on a few points. For one, giving it a chance is vital in realizing everyone's opinions, however my take on it wasn't to demand an immediate removal of it, it was to inform you of Gensec's initial impression of this line, as well as possible detrimental happenings that could occur if this line stay in effect. Over in the Security discord I noted how bad it would be to assume Gensec was the only one defending D-Block. No. We weren't. MTF were behind our backs, supporting us through the miniguns, the gas, and the full lockdown, too. To pin blame and give what seems like a demerit to Gensec for doing our jobs as well as accepting MTF support when we needed it most, is solely an uninformed decision.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Jameshi34

[Dect]

17 minutes ago, Rangiatea said:

3 members of SMT held a event for D class to riot. we needed to supply them with stupidly good weapons (and even 500 HP and 100 ARMOR) to have a chance to beat you guys, you are not even giving this a chance but when D class complained about their fences i dont remember a single gensec not saying "just give it a bit" this wont be permanent if we feel it keeps D block unbalanced 

I even gassed GENSEC to give D class a chance, yet D class still failed

 

20 minutes ago, Catsro said:

This suggestion was pretty laughable if you had seen todays riot. Not even explosives nor a man with a minigun with 500 hp and 100 armor couldn't even stop you guys. If D-Class can shoot at you then you can shoot back at them from that angle.  D-Class can pretty much get deleted in about 3-5 shots. We made this change and it hasn't even been out for 24 hours and there is already a suggestion out please just wait a bit and see how this change goes into effect.

When this event happened I was AFK and I didn't see a big majority of it. I heard that D-Class was given Miniguns but not health. Miniguns and health are a clear sign that d-class has a major disadvantage. The line adds a barrier to the D-class as they will have a chance to riot. The people that are mad at this aren't thinking about the full picture on how the line will affect D-Class but they're thinking about themselves and how they won't be able to annihilate the d-class instantly. The exceptions for classes to pass the line won't change much and all it will do is cause more problems that are already relevant. The blue line is making the D-Class have a chance in the fight. Also, D-Block was fine for security not for the people that play D-Class. I have only been seeing D-Class being able to get through Security after lowering the health of the security after dying repeatably or having the luck of a D-Class cc with a smoke grenade to come on the server and give them a saving grace. D-Block was one-sided with Gensec at the beginning when the map was changed. There has been a fence change to D-Block and it still wasn't giving D-Class any luck. Now D-Class has a chance to winning a fight against Security/MTF. Exceptions could be added but I cant think of exceptions that would actually make sense as of right now to be added. This is going to be very controversial and please talk to me in TS or Discord instead of clogging up the post with responses. The blue line also brings cross fire to a minimum as it separates bystanders from the people that are rioting against Security.
-Support for now 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Dect

[Mind Stone]

+/- Support

I can't say I'm a fan of this new addition. But I also believe you need to give it a shot. I agree that it was added mere hours ago and you already hate it. We will Adapt. Survive. Overcome. We always do eventually. 

[Jack II]

Changing back to a - support

GenSec and MTF destroy D class easily. Its not fair.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Jack II

[Sixx]

2 minutes ago, Jack II said:

- Support

GenSec shouldnt be past that point anyway unless during partial or trying to kill a d class

Thats the problem.

[Jameshi34]

7 minutes ago, Jack II said:

- Support

GenSec shouldnt be past that point anyway unless during partial or trying to kill a d class

Yeah this is the problem dude, we can no longer go past this line to try and kill a D-Class or during partial lockdown.

[[GL] Inaccurate]

-Support

We just got this change, give it a week or two.

[Creamey]

15 minutes ago, [GL] Inaccurate said:

-Support

We just got this change, give it a week or two.

-support

I agree with SMT. Although there are times when we lose D Block because our numbers are lacking, but most of the time, our numbers are decent, enabling us to be in full control of D Block. We still need to see how the blue line affects the fairness of D Block warfare. 

[Rangiatea]

*little note from SMT*

Riot Control will be allowed past the line, ONLY riot control not MTF not HCMD not CMD 

(you may also still pass the line if you are grabbing D class)

[APE]

1 hour ago, Catsro said:

This suggestion was pretty laughable if you had seen todays riot. Not even explosives nor a man with a minigun with 500 hp and 100 armor couldn't even stop you guys. If D-Class can shoot at you then you can shoot back at them from that angle.  D-Class can pretty much get deleted in about 3-5 shots. We made this change and it hasn't even been out for 24 hours and there is already a suggestion out please just wait a bit and see how this change goes into effect.

It was not just security. We had at least 15 MTF. These MTF were comprised of many OMNI9 and SF. One Cannister of Gas won't kill people if you miss. The throws were terrible and practically missed all Gensec and MTF. Our combined brain power was good enough to realize that the best way to avoid being gas, is to just go where the gas isn't. Therefore deeming the gas ineffective. . It does not matter if one or 2 men have 500 hp and an inaccurate crazy recoil minigun that is 100% one of the worst weapons to try and aim with. 25 Foundation shooting in a straight line will still come out on top, its basic field combat logic. The Dclass don't have cover, nor did they have it in the old DBLOCK. Keep in mind that the first barricade structure on this new map was replaced because you guys thought it was too OP for Dclass and you wanted to help Gensec. You and me are on the same exact Dclass CC, the best one on the server. I can name 40 times in the past week alone me and other CCs took over dblock.  Earlier that day, not even an hour before this. Gensec lost Dblock and the Dclass got to armory and held dblock. Sniping us from the back, making it so we could not get back into Dblock. They do a complete takeover of dblock multiple times a day. 

+Support

You can give 30 dclass mac10s like you guys were doing, they will still die just the same and they cannot breach. You were giving them scopeless SMGS that are meant for close range combat to use against people with accurate weapons that are far away behind barricades. It makes sense that this riot was ineffective, we practically had all of MTF in Dblock. After they left and SMT stopped rioting, dblock fell. Took 5 wardens to hold it until our boys were done with NLR.

Frankly, I don't care what happens to dblock. Security can adapt. But Rang told us he wanted less partial lockdowns and more hands up. I don't think this will help us achieve that goal. lol, I appreciate the balancing efforts more than you know, as I adore my DCLASS CC but this isn't the way to do it. A more effective way would be returning DBLOCK to how it used to be when the map first launched. Even right now DBLOCK is fallen and has been multiple times since the change. lol, once again I'm fine with it if you guys say we need it to stay like this.

Edited September 25, 2020 by APE

[Sixx]

3 minutes ago, APE said:

It was not just security. We had at least 15 MTF. These MTF were comprised of many OMNI9 and SF.

 

[Propane]

-/+ support 

Yeah there were tons of MTF but I still say give it a week