A fair response to the problem of shield rushing - Denied

[Names]

What you want to see? -  Government Shield Rule Update

Tactical Shields IRL are heavy and bulky and any gov who wants to use them must not be allowed to full sprint with one (walk only). This should be treated as FailRP

Government who use shields during a situation may only switch to their sidearm (pistol or shotgun) and must wait an additional 5 seconds before switching to a primary weapon. This should also be treated as FailRP
 

Why should we add it? -  Realism and balance.  Here is a situation which occurred :

Context: Shadow Legacy is Doing a Money Silo with 20 Members

Crim has a good grasp of the situation and government is rapidly losing members to sniper fire. Multiple mustard gas grenades are deployed to mixed results and the situation is in a stalemate. Government then throws a single mustard gas grenade and sprint in with 3 shields which block gunfire as they reach the door they immediately switch to a battering ram to instantly break down the door then repeat that for the rest of the doors. As they reach the end they switch to LMGs ARs and Shotguns and blow up the Silo

What are the advantages of having this? - Realism and balance

Who is it mainly for? - Crim

Links to any content -  N/A

[Lime King]

-Support

-Shields are there to balance when raiding and getting trapped inside fading doors and a base.
-This would easily how any crims to get gov trapped inside
-Just build better bases to get multiple angles to stop any shield rushes.

[Gobl1n]

+Support

 

As a gov main i gotta say:

you ever see government in real life all have shields? no they stack and move through the base tactically. If we as gov dont like the way bases are set up, future changes should be made

[braymccowan]

+support 

[Noah Lee]

58 minutes ago, Lime King said:

-Support

-Shields are there to balance when raiding and getting trapped inside fading doors and a base.
-This would easily how any crims to get gov trapped inside
-Just build better bases to get multiple angles to stop any shield rushes.

 

[Bartholomew]

15 hours ago, Lime King said:

-Support

-Shields are there to balance when raiding and getting trapped inside fading doors and a base.
-This would easily how any crims to get gov trapped inside
-Just build better bases to get multiple angles to stop any shield rushes.

- this just sounds like a ploy of things so that you and others can just one tap gov with a barret, which is highly unrealistic to begin with.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Bartholomew

[Dry]

1 hour ago, Lime King said:

-Support

-Shields are there to balance when raiding and getting trapped inside fading doors and a base.
-This would easily how any crims to get gov trapped inside
-Just build better bases to get multiple angles to stop any shield rushes.

 

[elefhant]

+ support

+Shields are realistic heavy

+Gov has lots of armor (200-270 for most tac)

+Gov is already OP with weapons

+gov sees it from govs viewpoint, it is IMPOSSIBLE to shoot a gov who is blocking fire with a shield unless you move around them, Many base entrances do not allow to get multiple angles and also, In the context provided (and from experience) gov may cover all angles with the shield making them immune. Your chances of winning a firefight to gov with shields are slim to none

 

Context of my own: Soprano family is initiating a money silo. 1 wave of SRT comes in and with the help of a black market dealer using a shield and one stacked behind him, they start taking heavy ASVAL fire from around a corner. Once the gun is empty, the remaining gov goes in with a shield while facing around to cover fire, He ends up getting attacked from the other position. Once they have revised their strategy, they return to the base. We have figured they would revise their strategy so we revise ours in a effort to stall for time. I stay up front and lay down heavy fire with a M60 as my fellow family members snipe from the back. Our goal was to catch them by surprise by them thinking we would be in the same spot but instead of focusing cover on all areas they take out their shields and begin rushing. With the superior numbers we have we dissipate them with a smoke grenade and fire at each one. They lost round two. We heal up and get ready for round three. This time with improved comms they start rushing again. This time staying close even in spite of another smoke grenade. A flash grenade is thrown causing slight delay as they all stop and hold their position. We seize these few seconds and have two people move to the other corner and beging firing from two angles. The shields block all the bullets and they continue their advance. The two people in the corner are killed by a solo SRT and then they start rushing us. *The rest of this is according to teammates, as i have already died* SSGT Nicc begins rushing us with a shield as another SRT stays behind him laying down fire where his hitbox is barely visible. We all dissipate into smaller groups as two of us run up to another floor of the building to protect the silo. There are 3 alive SRT as of the moment and they deploy gas which clips through the floor and kills the people upstairs. After a sit is called about the situation, Nicc (One of the SRT in the situation) claims it and instantly tells us off. The only way you can win in a firefight with tac with shields is if you have an army. We had around 15 people compared to the 4 SRT which stormed the building. We planned out our tactics and the only reason gov won in the end was because of the shield and armor and the use of gas grenades. Im not concerned about the gas im concerned about the shields. If they had waited five seconds for their weapons to be pulled out then it would have been a fair fight. (also the NLR is rigged)

[Zeffy.z1]

Sorry but in going to have to 

-support

 

It actually is realistic in a way for cops to use shields aiming multiple directions in order to block fire. Even in the ancient times, pretty sure Romans?, used shields that way to build a barricade around them in order to get further past enemy lines. 

As for running while holding these shields, government are often trained for things like this. Sure if might be heavy AF but the shields are also made to be carried efficiently. 

Maybe my options aren't terribly valid, but instead of changing a rule that has been around since the age of dinosaurs, people should start building bases to counter these types of attacks and grow in knowledge that way. 

[Chip&Dail]

-Support 
You are talking about "Realism", Then lets make Crim take 2/3 shots to kill like as you mentioned "In Real Life" and Balance it out a bit. Lets give Gov more OP Equipment for Base Rading, as they would have "In Real Life" to Add "Realism"

Shield Pushing is a tacitic Adapted SPECIFICALLY to this game for tac, in order for it to even be possible to raid bases, as "Maze Bases" and ETC are NOT a thing "In Real Life" 
You want to add "Realism" to a GAME, which is already as close to reality as possible. Funilly Enough, shild pushing is a tactic IRL. 

Please understand, you are trying to do this to "Nerf" Gov Jobs, when gov and crim are already balanced out a LOT, but SMT consistently. Its MUCH harder to raid a base then to defend, which is why we have a armor and weapon advantage as stated above (And not always now) 

Shield Pushing and Rushin should ALWAYS be allowed and it was always a tactic used by gov!

[GL Nathan]

11 minutes ago, Chip&Dail said:

-Support 
You are talking about "Realism", Then lets make Crim take 2/3 shots to kill like as you mentioned "In Real Life" and Balance it out a bit. Lets give Gov more OP Equipment for Base Rading, as they would have "In Real Life" to Add "Realism"

Shield Pushing is a tacitic Adapted SPECIFICALLY to this game for tac, in order for it to even be possible to raid bases, as "Maze Bases" and ETC are NOT a thing "In Real Life" 
You want to add "Realism" to a GAME, which is already as close to reality as possible. Funilly Enough, shild pushing is a tactic IRL. 

Please understand, you are trying to do this to "Nerf" Gov Jobs, when gov and crim are already balanced out a LOT, but SMT consistently. Its MUCH harder to raid a base then to defend, which is why we have a armor and weapon advantage as stated above (And not always now) 

Shield Pushing and Rushin should ALWAYS be allowed and it was always a tactic used by gov!

 

[Names]

For anyone above mentioning that tunning with a 20 pound shield at the same speed of others being realistic it isnt. A 20 pound flat surface is cumbersome and un aerodynamic and causes drag which is not negligible. Running with a large shield would also be unprobable in the real world due to humans using our arms to balance ourselves against the inertia cauaed by running and jumping. (Think of when you jump how you use your arms to push yourself upwards.)

Finally in response to chipdail. No real police dont run into ANY situation they go through it slowly and only under favorable conditions and circumstances. Ideally at night with obscured vision and at a slow pace to prevent injury. Running in is not a police tactic and never has been one. Attached below is a link to a video demonstrating how shields are used.

 

[Kcarma]

-SUPPORT
I'll Be Honest With You This Suggestion Would Make Gov Raiding Bases Pretty Much Close To Impossible The Shield Is To Balance Raiding For Gov.
As A Gov Main Myself If We Did Have This Raiding Crim Bases Would Just Give Gov A Even More Hard Time As It Is

In My Opinion At The Moment It Is Already Balanced 

And The Server Is Semi Serious So I Don't Think Is Necessary
We Already Have Been Nerfed A Tiny Bit Because Of The Stamina
 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Kcarma

[Nicolaaas08]

+/- Support

I think I have a better solution. In a base I think the shields obviously have a place to balance the difficulty of raiding bases. However there are many situations where Government are not in a base, but will pull out their shields and rush an armed criminal at 15mph.

This is a situation that seems quite ridiculous. So perhaps the rule should be "If you are not raiding a base, (something restricting the use of shields, or quick switching between them and a primary)". I think this is a fair solution that addresses both sides' concerns.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Nicolaaas08

[Chip&Dail]

11 hours ago, Names said:

For anyone above mentioning that tunning with a 20 pound shield at the same speed of others being realistic it isnt. A 20 pound flat surface is cumbersome and un aerodynamic and causes drag which is not negligible. Running with a large shield would also be unprobable in the real world due to humans using our arms to balance ourselves against the inertia cauaed by running and jumping. (Think of when you jump how you use your arms to push yourself upwards.)

Finally in response to chipdail. No real police dont run into ANY situation they go through it slowly and only under favorable conditions and circumstances. Ideally at night with obscured vision and at a slow pace to prevent injury. Running in is not a police tactic and never has been one. Attached below is a link to a video demonstrating how shields are used.

 

Not Going to Start Causing Arguments but will state this! Yes, Police take it Slowly BUT, weapons dont take 30 bullets to kill a person, and Maze bases and fading doors are NOT a real thing. You are trying to remove something from tac, then how about we make crim 2 shot to kill instead of 30. You ignored  EVERYTHING in my statement, except for the part with shield pushing. Look at the situation as a whole, not as something you want to change, because you are angry that Gov are doing a better job. 
We Train for tactical breaching, and have better precision, which is why we do better. If we Restricted Maze bases, and make crim die realistically "2 shot them" then I will Totally Agree to remove shiel pushing. As of right now it is a suggestion to nerf tac, to benefit you, because you cannot kill tac. 

[MJTHEOG]

15 hours ago, Chip&Dail said:

-Support 
You are talking about "Realism", Then lets make Crim take 2/3 shots to kill like as you mentioned "In Real Life" and Balance it out a bit. Lets give Gov more OP Equipment for Base Rading, as they would have "In Real Life" to Add "Realism"

Shield Pushing is a tacitic Adapted SPECIFICALLY to this game for tac, in order for it to even be possible to raid bases, as "Maze Bases" and ETC are NOT a thing "In Real Life" 
You want to add "Realism" to a GAME, which is already as close to reality as possible. Funilly Enough, shild pushing is a tactic IRL. 

Please understand, you are trying to do this to "Nerf" Gov Jobs, when gov and crim are already balanced out a LOT, but SMT consistently. Its MUCH harder to raid a base then to defend, which is why we have a armor and weapon advantage as stated above (And not always now) 

Shield Pushing and Rushin should ALWAYS be allowed and it was always a tactic used by gov!

 

[MiniEpic]

-Support

First off, because like everything on this post is leaning to realism. You have to have in mind that this is a semi serious rp server. Now to go off why I'm -supporting. First off rushing with heavy shield has been in the server for about 2 years now and there has been no issues rushing in a base raid, etc. Now I understand your point running up towards someone with a blastic shield then pulling out your gun. I mean I have done this many times and before I was JMT and staff really hasn't enforced this rule at all. Second this is what we call a tactic to use during raids, this has always been thing like "Battering ram, shield then battering ram!" and so on. The commanding officer on the scene gives these orders so we can actually breach a base.

17 hours ago, Names said:

they immediately switch to a battering ram to instantly break down the door then repeat that for the rest of the doors. As they reach the end they switch to LMGs ARs and Shotguns and blow up the Silo

Now this really has been thing if you are of course been on the server for a couple years or months. This has always been the strategy. If you come up to a door with your shield out you should get your battering ram out and breach the door then keep running with your shield. This has been the case for years now! And this is what some tac SOP's follow and other department guidelines. If you really add this rule it just makes it useless to use a shield at a raid.

Now let me point something out. We already have been nerfed from this many times, like the nerf of tac armor and some equipment. And also not every tac member has 250-270 that was removed a long time ago to balance it with criminal. Criminal you have been buffed as you get armor to about 150-200 or even 215 on some jobs, if you say we been unbalanced you guys have been. You have to use your brain with the classes you choose that is custom classes or even level jobs. Level jobs get armor and run speed if you think about that.

 

[Kale_]

17 hours ago, Lime King said:

-Support

-Shields are there to balance when raiding and getting trapped inside fading doors and a base.
-This would easily how any crims to get gov trapped inside
-Just build better bases to get multiple angles to stop any shield rushes.

-Support 

Semi Serious Server so we don’t need realistic rules. Unless they want to make the server a Serious RP server then this suggestion it not good. 

[Rocky]

-Support
In my eyes, the shields are perfectly fine. Its up to the criminals to think and adapt their base design to deal with situations like this. 

[Jimmy James]

Denied. The SMT team for this server has decided against adding this suggestion for performance reasons, the benefit to the server, or another unstated reason.