Apes appeal

[Sixx]

3 hours ago, Pillercat said:

I agree with this 100%. From my understanding, the GenSec undercover system is supposed to be used to make sure that GenSec enlisted, NCOs, and LCMD are doing a good job. However, it definitely seems to be more commonly used to instigate situations just like this. Sometimes the rank is even lower than CPL, so this causes even more of an issue.

GenSec HCMD Will look into this. 

[Creamey]

18 hours ago, Sprink said:

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

lol agreed

Edited August 20, 2021 by CreameyCheesey

[Demon Dice]

5 hours ago, Pillercat said:

I agree with this 100%. From my understanding, the GenSec undercover system is supposed to be used to make sure that GenSec enlisted, NCOs, and LCMD are doing a good job. However, it definitely seems to be more commonly used to instigate situations just like this. Sometimes the rank is even lower than CPL, so this causes even more of an issue.

With that being said, I have a few additional thoughts on the matter:

1. The HSU probably could have slowed down a bit.

2. Full out killing the HSU was a pretty big overreaction and didn't need to happen.

3. The disrespect was also unneeded. You cussed out the HSU and insulted him and from what I saw in the sit (granted I came towards the end), you were quite rude to Weiss. He barely interrupted you and you proceeded to angrily and loudly shush him and tell him to be quiet. It was completely uncalled for and very condescending.

-support

 

Im gonna add he was incredibly disrespectful towards weiss during the sit aswell as the HSU in question, and as for saying the hsu could have waited longer to react Nu7 are really busy most of the time we really dont have alot of time to deal with gensec CPL's in HCZ. We just cuff them and bring them back to LCZ as fast as possible and I personally feel like ape overreacted to this whole situation.

[APE]

6 hours ago, Pillercat said:

I agree with this 100%. From my understanding, the GenSec undercover system is supposed to be used to make sure that GenSec enlisted, NCOs, and LCMD are doing a good job. However, it definitely seems to be more commonly used to instigate situations just like this. Sometimes the rank is even lower than CPL, so this causes even more of an issue.

With that being said, I have a few additional thoughts on the matter:

1. The HSU probably could have slowed down a bit.

2. Full out killing the HSU was a pretty big overreaction and didn't need to happen.

3. The disrespect was also unneeded. You cussed out the HSU and insulted him and from what I saw in the sit (granted I came towards the end), you were quite rude to Weiss. He barely interrupted you and you proceeded to angrily and loudly shush him and tell him to be quiet. It was completely uncalled for and very condescending.

-support

 

Was I warned for being aggressive? Did I not admit to my anger at the situation in my own description of the events? This is to appeal an warn for RDM. Was it RDM or was it not, that's what we are deciding. This isn't an appeal for rage. How I acted is irrelevant to the warn I received.

8 hours ago, th3 said:

This 100%. Poor decision making played a huge part in this situation occurring. The worst thing that can happen is taking matters into your own hands when it can be resolved by a quick and easy staff call to get clarification. I would say however, that a formal warning is 100% needed, given that the person warned knows the rules and purposefully chose to rdm over calling staff.

-Support

Killing someone who is cuffing you without reason and FAILRP you is not RDM, you are allowed to kill those who try and cuff you unjustly and for no reason without the power to do so, that much is true. As I was being cuffed for no reason, with the HSU not following proper procedures, and about to FAILRP if he were to cuff me, I feel, or rather I know that I am allowed to kill him. It would seem very few staff disagree with that. But still, I appreciate your input as I do with everyone.

[Georgie_]

20 hours ago, Sprink said:

+Support

This should not have been a Warning. First, of all CPL's are allowed in HCZ so the HSU has no reason to cuff him in the first place. Second of all Ape was being cuffed after trying to say "one second" so he didn't even have any time to say he is allowed in HCZ. He rightfully killed him after he attempted to cuff him. For the actual sit and Weiss talking over him and not letting him tell his story I have no idea if that happened or not since there is not a clip of the sit so I will not comment on that.

This

[God Emperor Drip]

+support another case of power tripping *sigh*

10 hours ago, Leafy said:

+support

Definitely did not deserve the warn, you all just love powergaming.

Cringe.

Also this whole feature should not have been implemented in the first place.

 

[APE]

1 hour ago, God Emperor Drip said:

+support another case of power tripping *sigh*

 

LMAO HOMIE YOOOO HOP ON GL AGAIN I MISS U

 

[Loki Himself]

16 hours ago, Kvist said:

+SUPPORT

The definition of 'RDM' is Random Deathmatch. This wasn't random and it wasn't deathmatch, so by that logic alone this warning by necessity is required to be voided. The man was being assaulted, ie. the HSU was attempting to restrain him for little to no reason, so he responded with what he felt was his only option after he gave sufficient warning. 

The only OOC components of this are the fact that Ape was distracted by his Teamspeak volume and the fact he was eating. That impacted the roleplay, though the HSU was already quick with the handcuffing so I would argue it had a negligible effect. 

With all of the above being said, one could argue this was completely IC and there is no room for admin intervention.

 

[Rektify]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:58 PM, Mind Stone said:

The situation was handled poorly on both sides. Lack of communication. The Nu7 should’ve been aware that Ape was allowed in HCZ as an undercover CPL (any CPL can be there) before attempting to detain him. I would like to point out that this is the 2nd time this has occurred. However in the prior scenario the Nu7 killed the security and didn’t even get a warn. 

Alright, so here's how I look at this:

Looking over the rules, let's understand that nothing in the MOTD says anything about not being able to defend yourself if you're being restrained (unless under fear rp). In this situation that occurred, it would have been FailRP for the HSU to arrest you since you were under the disguise of a CPL (still getting an answer from the HSU on the reason) but, for attempting to do so, you defended yourself. In this context, I take the rule on D-class not being able to kill each other (which many still do) and apply the integrated self-defense rule in this. D-Class personnel can protect themselves if they're being attacked (agreed among SMT). As staff, we should only be going after the one who instigated the fight (I'll probably note this down in the motd at some point). I've had plenty of situations myself where someone was attempting to cuff me over no justifiable reason and I've killed them for it because there are no rules against it. 

But let's switch our position. Say some low ranking personnel ended up killing me instead... usually that would be considered  RDM for attacking another foundation personnel and it would be 'justified'. But in the rules, we know foundation personnel are not allowed to harm others... This has happened many times before over my years in staffing and even now. I see that this is a problem within the rules that we, as SMT, have to fix.  As Mind said, the situation was poorly handled and each party involved could have handled the situation better. So, was this RDM? Yes AND no. This is no longer a case where it's a simple "It is" or "Is isn't".
Due to the confusion, I will lift up the warn. As I've stated clearly many times, there are no rules against it. But there will need to be a change in the rules to get this cleared up more. 


 

[Rektify]

Accepted

To have your warn removed, go to the "Bans" Section at the top of the forums, navigate to your profile, find the warning for this appeal, and for the reason on the appeal, link this post.