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Warning Appeal - omen


omenGL
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Your In-game Name: omen

Your SteamID: STEAM_0:0:521103062

The admin's name in-game: Stolas

What warning did you receive: RDM

When did you receive this warning: today

Please give a description of the situation that led to the warning: Ok so I'm sitting in dblock as a juggernaut doing my job and this dude on a CC comes up to the line. I'm using a longbow at the moment so the lighting and my POV is warped and certain parts are blocked by my scope. I'm zoomed in and the dclass pulls an axe out (which can do damage). I perceive it to be a gun instead, so I shoot him because from my perspective it looked just like a gun. He reports me for it and I get warned for it.
 

Why do you think this warn was false: This warn is false I believe. I was doing my job and this could've all been avoided had the other party just understood that It was a perspective issue and that the Axe is KOS, due to it being capable of doing damage. 

I'd like to also state that the Axe does damage, even if it's only armor damage and deals just 1. It CAN do damage which means it is KOS, there is no specific line within the Security SOP or MOTD at all, stating that the axe isn't KOS. Another thing, due to the lighting already being bad enough as it is, and with my scope in the way, and me being on 52/0 at the time this happened. I kill the dclass for 2 valid reasons. Axe can be KOS, it's the security that decides if it is or not. Not the dclass. From my perspective, it looked just like a gun, skinned up, with the barrel, the handle, looking EXACTLY like a pistol. The beginning of the gun animation starts off with it being at your side so I shoot him the moment he pulls it out because of that.

Evidence the warning is false: https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/yiasqSXd-0MP6/d1337Qc64AB6?invite=cr-MSxueW8sODU4MzIzMTEs

Security Sergeant Major | Juggernaut Enforcer
                       
                     
   Owner of A.H.I.R.D 'Atlas'

juggernaut RP

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+Support 

The axe deals damage towards players

Deputy Head of Security Armored Shield RRH guardian November 99 D5 PFC Casino Owner Elvis Presley Enthusiast Deputy Logging Operator Number 1 Weiss fan #weissforSMT Apart of the GOSB=good ol security's boys SITE PROTECTOR CI Covert Task Force Noble Team Do not pray for easy lives, my friends. Pray to be stronger men- JFK

 

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3 minutes ago, Jrshafer said:

+Support 

The axe deals damage towards players

 

Current GenSec LTCOL | Security Head Field Training Officer
Former GenSec COL | Former SCP:RP Admin and Forum Diplomat Former Event Team Member

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42 minutes ago, Jrshafer said:

+Support 

The axe deals damage towards players

would like to hear the other side to this

Retried: CI LTCMDR CI R&D AIN, E11 CPT, and Research Assistant Manager.

 

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As I stated in the sit, you have several priors including 2 other RDM warns, something that helped shape my decision. Though you reacted very quickly, even with the short time allotted, a pistol would have raised at least half way to follow the proper animation for holding a gun. Additionally, to my knowledge and what I have heard from several security members, as well as situations I have been in with security, the axe is not KOS until used with the long range fence exploit. not if held, not if used on other D-class. only if used to whittle down security armor. It is an unwritten rule, and while it is true its not stated to not be KOS, its also not stated to be KOS either. Most security make the call to ignore it until used, or give warnings to put it away. This in mind, I acknowledge that the rule for what is and isn't KOS are a bit unclear, and I will advocate for the security SOP to be updated in accordance to the new ming SWE

In any case, you are using "I thought it was a gun" as an excuse, which is not valid in my opinion, once again a conclusion I draw from your previous warns. "Well, actually, it was a lumber axe, so its OK" is also not a valid excuse, as you did not know that at the time, so you cannot just say the lumber axe makes it all right. It's the same as if he were to pull out the pickaxe, which does no damage, and is not KOS under any circumstance. That would still be RDM. What he actually pulled out doesn't matter, you failed to analyze the situation properly, you failed to have proper trigger discipline(using a sniper no less), and you killed a D-class without reason. You have stated several times you thought it was a gun when you pulled the trigger, a miscalculation on your part.

Finally, the victim also did not see your excuses as valid, and did not forgive you. Had he done that, I would have simply given you a verbal, told you to be more careful when taking fire at D-class, and sent you both back. That did not happen however. I know as security you must always be on edge and ready for anything, but taking the proper time to step back and assess the situation is invaluable. A half seconds hesitation can mean the difference between a simple misunderstanding and an RDM sit.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Stolas said:

its also not stated to be KOS either.

so it's purely up to the security guard to make the call of whether it's KOS or not, gotcha

Security Sergeant Major | Juggernaut Enforcer
                       
                     
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2 minutes ago, omenGL said:

so it's purely up to the security guard to make the call of whether it's KOS or not, gotcha

No. If the general consensus is it's not KOS until used, its not KOS until used. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Still, this entire side of your argument is made false by this

14 minutes ago, Lord Stolas said:

What he actually pulled out doesn't matter, you failed to analyze the situation properly, you failed to have proper trigger discipline(using a sniper no less

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Lord Stolas said:

No. If the general consensus is it's not KOS until used, its not KOS until used. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Still, this entire side of your argument is made false by this

 

not written, not my problem. that leaves it to us to decide, the general consensus doesn't mean shit. 

juggernauts are required by SOP to not hesitate/show weakness. and RDM by definition is killing another player without RP reason, believing an axe is KOS when it isn't written down in the SOP, let alone perceiving it as a gun (have you even watched the clip, from a glance, do you genuinely believe that looks anything like an axe?), is not RDM in any sense.

this is purely on you for judging the situation wrongly, and using a "general consensus" to determine a warn when its not even written down in any SOP or the MOTD whatsoever. the only thing ive found which is remotely close to being written down is this image

image.thumb.png.933cfa8c655fef810c4e1a8f49985ad6.png

notice how it says "Pickaxe"?
 

Edited by omenGL

Security Sergeant Major | Juggernaut Enforcer
                       
                     
   Owner of A.H.I.R.D 'Atlas'

juggernaut RP

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6 hours ago, Jrshafer said:

+Support 

The axe deals damage towards players

 

Currently: CI CPL | FTO | CQOP | SPS

Future HOS, WL and CI General
Retired Medical Supervisor | E-11 SM | Nu-7 SM | HTF | Security CPT | Warden Centurion

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7 minutes ago, omenGL said:

that leaves it to us to decide, the general consensus doesn't mean shit.

This sentence makes no sense

 

7 minutes ago, omenGL said:

using a "general consensus" to determine a warn when its not even written down in any SOP or the MOTD whatsoever.

This is literally what a rule is, it's people deciding collectively what is and is not allowed

 

Also notice how it say rust weapons and pickaxe? The axe is a rust weapon 

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+Support

RDM is killing without valid reason. This definition is loose and general for a reason, it can be interpreted as is needed. A dclass having an item that can be used as a weapon in a mass security facility is a valid reason to kill them, they’re prisoners and it is gensec’s job to keep it that way. The only exception is for when they’re in lower dblock and that’s really out of kindness towards AFK players, etc.

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+support 
I have always told to all the new gensec if you receive or got hit by the and you see that you get 1 armor remove they are full KOS
And this warn is false 

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I give up, you're all missing the point.

Security Marksman | Nu-7 Enforcer | Advanced Researcher | Research Automaton Guardian | Lecturer | Foreman | Maintenance  Head Field Training Officer | Senior Containment Specialist | Mobile Mop Force Jan 2 | Head of HLPR Bot | Elite Medic | Field Medic | Resident Medical Researcher | Experienced Combat Medic | E11 Corporeal | Medical Specialist | Experienced Marksman | Junior Combat Engineer | Rapid Response Team D5 Lance Corporial | Initiate Raptor Operative 

 

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From my personal experiences with things like this. I just verbally tell the person how the axe and pickaxe thing work. Everyone has been told that the axe and pickaxe are not KOS. The only exception for this was when a player with the axe uses it as a weapon or abuses the one fence glitch in dblock to hit a guard or player. I don't know if that was the case though and have also previously got into a sit with omen for something like this. But after watching the clip that was provided. I can see why he'd think that it was a gun and kill him and can also see why stolas would warn him.

+support

Going to support this, because it was an honest mistake, and everything matches up.

8 hours ago, Jrshafer said:

+Support 

The axe deals damage towards players

It's only KOS when it damages a player.

SCP:RP Moderator | Former Security DHFTO 2LT American | Platnium Donator Rank | Professional Gun Lover | Certified American

 

 

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12 hours ago, Jrshafer said:

+Support 

The axe deals damage towards players

 

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11 hours ago, Nydekore said:

+Support

RDM is killing without valid reason. This definition is loose and general for a reason, it can be interpreted as is needed. A dclass having an item that can be used as a weapon in a mass security facility is a valid reason to kill them, they’re prisoners and it is gensec’s job to keep it that way. The only exception is for when they’re in lower dblock and that’s really out of kindness towards AFK players, etc.

 

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11 hours ago, Nydekore said:

+Support

RDM is killing without valid reason. This definition is loose and general for a reason, it can be interpreted as is needed. A dclass having an item that can be used as a weapon in a mass security facility is a valid reason to kill them, they’re prisoners and it is gensec’s job to keep it that way. The only exception is for when they’re in lower dblock and that’s really out of kindness towards AFK players, etc.

 

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Retired 11/12/2022
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Ok first why are people only quoting what looks like a good response

 

I say +support

In the clip you can clearly tell that the vision is not fully clear as to what he has which will make it look like a weapon therefore I also feel that the punishment at the time should have been a verbal warn and been told to be more careful in future as I have been staring down a scope and killed someone who looks like they are holding a weapon

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16 hours ago, MichaelWebb100 said:

Ok first why are people only quoting what looks like a good response

 

I say +support

In the clip you can clearly tell that the vision is not fully clear as to what he has which will make it look like a weapon therefore I also feel that the punishment at the time should have been a verbal warn and been told to be more careful in future as I have been staring down a scope and killed someone who looks like they are holding a weapon

Not when the reportee has previous recent RDM warns, if he didn't have any I would guess a verbal might suffice.
Warns are usually used to deter people from doing things like let's say, being light on the trigger, or ERPing in a server with 13 year olds (Example, has nothing to do with Omen), when the person getting warned already has previous formal warns I am going to guess they got verbals before-hand. I am not going to +1 or -1 this due to me being very biased, unlike many other people here who just came to lend a hand to a friend in removing a warn. I wish I could end this topic where it started, but some people just can't let go, and some have to make it personal...

Edited by Kaizer

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2 hours ago, Kaizer said:

recent RDM warns

one of these warns was from 2020. the 2nd one was me getting fed up with a dclass deliberately going infront of me, this incident is different

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5 hours ago, Kaizer said:

Not when the reportee has previous recent RDM warns

You have to be careful for when those warns were as it could have been from 2 years ago

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On 8/27/2022 at 6:49 AM, Nydekore said:

+Support

RDM is killing without valid reason. This definition is loose and general for a reason, it can be interpreted as is needed. A dclass having an item that can be used as a weapon in a mass security facility is a valid reason to kill them, they’re prisoners and it is gensec’s job to keep it that way. The only exception is for when they’re in lower dblock and that’s really out of kindness towards AFK players, etc.

 

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  • Manager

Accepted

To have your warn removed, go to the "Bans" Section at the top of the forums, navigate to your profile, find the warning for this appeal, and for the reason on the appeal, link this post.

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