Bring back Non-Combatants specialization - Denied

[PlantBruh]

I want to preface this with a general statement on why I’m making this suggestion; RP on this server is on its last legs, some would even say it’s dead, I personally feel that a massive part of this is how all encompassing the 3 MTF branches are right now, why would a new person want to stay in maintenance when they can join Nu7, and play on mobile field expert? It has less restrictions on where they’re allowed to go, they get to be in the middle of action whether it be SCP’s or GOI’s and STILL get to doing everything a maintenance gets to do? This is just one example but I will expand on this more later in the suggestion. 

What are you suggesting? - Bringing back systems that were originally unique to non-combatant branches. (Maintenance trash collection, fixing CC’s and doors in the facility, MTF medical jobs, apparently being allowed to do SCP tests now??)

How would this change better the server? - This would actually a reason to play non-combative branches, MTF as a whole does just about everything on the server. When I had first joined the server last year there wa a incentives to join something like Medical or Maintenance because they were the healing classes or they were the ones stopping SCP breaches and fixing the faculty up. This has been diffused into many other classes that it’s meaningless now. When you join Nu7 you get access to FIVE sub-branches, Field Expert, Behemoth, CBRN, MCU, and Covert Agent; Not including their SF, an SCP, and Rifle Guardian. Why does a branch all about maintaining a facility and feeding SCP’s need so many classes? The same can be said for E11, why does a branch that’s all about the recontainment of SCP’s need a medical and engineer class? If we want to bring back any kind of RP we can’t keep letting MTF be allowed to do literally everything a non-combative branch was made to do. Having to rely more heavily on medical and maintenance would lead to much more enjoyable interactions for both branches rather than someone hopping onto another MTF job that does the exact same thing. MTF need to stop being all-encompassing and frankly, oppressive force on the site.

Are there any disadvantages of making this change to the server? If so, explain. - I could try and be reductive and rude about this and say that there’s no downsides but it’s obviously has drawbacks to it.

1. A lot of people in MTF would lose their Sub-Branch command positions. Mainly the MCU, MFE, CE, and RCU. A lot of people love these jobs and maybe joined the branch because of jobs like this, but that’s the exact problem with that mindset, they shouldn’t be able to substitute playing an ENTIRE BRANCH by playing a sub-class in an MTF branch. 
 

2. There would be a “void” to fill in the removal of these jobs, if this was implemented it would obviously not be an overnight removal of everything, I would personally like them replaced with jobs more fitting for the archetype of MTF branches; More suited towards SCP recontainment. Or an even better solution would be expansion of what MTF can do during SCP breaches. Maybe making it harder for other branches to recontain an SCP while it’s easier for MTF to do so? If MTF was more suited to doing what their in-lore task forces are supposed to do would also lead to an interesting new avenue for balance on the server. If there’s more SCP focused MTF branches that deals with them easier, then we could buff SCP’s to make them an actual force to be reasoned with and actually needing MTF support for something like massive SCP breaches. Huge threats to the facility should be met with an equal response from MTF to subdue the SCP(s). 

Who would this change mostly benefit? - Non-combative branches, mainly medical and maintenance. 

Please link any workshop content, screenshots, or anything that you think may be helpful to those who view this suggestion - N/A

One last note, before you decide to mass              -support me please understand that if this would be implemented it would ultimately help the server. Having to rely on foundation members for support such as with healing and giving armor would be a big adjustment but one I truly believe would make the server a more RP focused server that would realistically depend on these branches for the invaluable support they bring to the foundation as a whole. Thanks for reading if you got here. 

[styx]

Maintenance rp moment

i would say it would be a hell of a long shot for all this to work but it would be good for rp and the server as a whole maybe 

what I am thinking is letting rcu stay get rid of ce and for nu7 field expert stay and get rid of their medical class

only reason I say this is because they both have a armor guy and healing guy so if we just get rid of some of then it may work out better and have a reason to go to medbay or try to talk to a maintenance without getting shot by mmf or jm because why not

+/- support

Edited June 2, 2022 by styx

[FusionThunder]

-Support

 

So there’s a few things to note here. Firstly, I am very much open to an idea like this but i would have preferred this be discussed with MTF HCMD before making a forums suggestion.

Secondly, While I am completely open to sort of repurposing classes you heavily overstate the effect sub branches like CTF, CBRN , RCU/MCU/CCU have. They arent as actively used as you think. They only rarely get used and even then classes like CTF and CBRN are only really used when theres an incentive like a mass test for ctf to go to or 610 to recontain for CBRN. I’ve constantly seen in my time as MTF Command/HCMD that sub branches with a purpose like this struggle with activity. 
 

Third, While the idea of repurposing classes for recontainment is interesting and im open to it, you need more development in those areas for this to seem like a good idea.

Fourth, CTF is kinda paid for it would be a loss of money for jack/price if it was removed

Lastly, While I am -Supporting this change this in no way means I am not open to future changes in this regard. The current change is not only incomplete but needs more thought put into multiple areas like transitional periods and sub branch Ideas. Also, I do not harbor ill feelings towards you or anyone supporting this as I know yall are tryna to change things for what you think is better

[Operator Houston]

1 minute ago, FusionThunder said:

-Support

 

So there’s a few things to note here. Firstly, I am very much open to an idea like this but i would have preferred this be discussed with MTF HCMD before making a forums suggestion.

Secondly, While I am completely open to sort of repurposing classes you heavily overstate the effect sub branches like CTF, CBRN , RCU/MCU/CCU have. They arent as actively used as you think. They only rarely get used and even then classes like CTF and CBRN are only really used when theres an incentive like a mass test for ctf to go to or 610 to recontain for CBRN. I’ve constantly seen in my time as MTF Command/HCMD that sub branches with a purpose like this struggle with activity. 
 

Third, While the idea of repurposing classes for recontainment is interesting and im open to it, you need more development in those areas for this to seem like a good idea.

Fourth, CTF is kinda paid for it would be a loss of money for jack/price if it was removed

Lastly, While I am -Supporting this change this in no way means I am not open to future changes in this regard. The current change is not only incomplete but needs more thought put into multiple areas like transitional periods and sub branch Ideas. Also, I do not harbor ill feelings towards you or anyone supporting this as I know yall are tryna to change things for what you think is better

 

[PlantBruh]

2 minutes ago, FusionThunder said:

-While I am completely open to sort of repurposing classes you heavily overstate the effect sub branches like CTF, CBRN , RCU/MCU/CCU have.

The existence of these classes at all is a major blow to non-combative branches in the first place. What would a fresh JM or ME rather do? Suck up trash and fix CC’s? Or join Nu7 and get to do everything you already do but also shoot people, help RC SCPs and fight GOI? Even if the new player doesn’t join Nu7 it puts in perspective how unimportant their job seems in comparison. 

 

8 minutes ago, FusionThunder said:

Fourth, CTF is kinda paid for it would be a loss of money for jack/price if it was removed

Wasn’t even going to touch D5 considering the nature of it being a paid branch, I’m mostly concerned about MCU, RCU, MFE, and CE.

[IgnisNuts]

-Support for removing the classes

I can't speak for the other MTF branches, but for Nu7 we always make sure that if possible we let the non-combatants branches do the RP first if they are available. The FE class was created in the first place because "Technical was never online" and we still use it as a maintenance first if there is no maintenance online. While MCU doesn't have the same reason for it's creation, it still follows the same general rules for Nu7 sub-branches that were based off the non-combatants letting them do rp first, or if they aren't available go ahead and do their job.

If you have any suggestions to change for Nu7's sub-branches, feel free to contact any of us for any suggestions you have! We'd be more than happy to hear your feedback!

[FusionThunder]

Just now, PlantBruh said:

The existence of these classes at all is a major blow to non-combative branches in the first place. What would a fresh JM or ME rather do? Suck up trash and fix CC’s? Or join Nu7 and get to do everything you already do but also shoot people, help RC SCPs and fight GOI? Even if the new player doesn’t join Nu7 it puts in perspective how unimportant their job seems in comparison. 

 

Wasn’t even going to touch D5 considering the nature of it being a paid branch, I’m mostly concerned about MCU, RCU, MFE, and CE.

If they have more benefits in the sub branches, why don’t they play them more than the actual rp branches are played? (Excluding medical ofc)

The existence of these classes does nothing currently and while i agree it can seem like a bad thing the branch’s activity doesnt hang in the balance over these classes.

[Drago]

- support

Currently to my understanding FE and CE are supposed to try and get a maintenance before fixing something they are just their as a backup, also RCU and MCU are really restricted on how much power they have MCU cant go into D-Block and RCU while if your the right rank in the sub branch you may be able to go on site and help out medical it is clearly stated that medical has priority when coming to any RP. Medical Combat Unit also at the proper ranks gets access to these jobs so if they got removed it would also be a detriment to medical, as medical high command  Nu7 High Command and E11 High Command already have set guidelines for the medical related jobs, maybe it would be nice if the the MTF high command and Maintenance high command Could rework some of the stuff to include the non-combatant people more like the medical side of things do.

Edited June 2, 2022 by drago89115

[1stSavagerY]

41 minutes ago, IgnisNuts said:

-Support for removing the classes

I can't speak for the other MTF branches, but for Nu7 we always make sure that if possible we let the non-combatants branches do the RP first if they are available. The FE class was created in the first place because "Technical was never online" and we still use it as a maintenance first if there is no maintenance online. While MCU doesn't have the same reason for it's creation, it still follows the same general rules for Nu7 sub-branches that were based off the non-combatants letting them do rp first, or if they aren't available go ahead and do their job.

If you have any suggestions to change for Nu7's sub-branches, feel free to contact any of us for any suggestions you have! We'd be more than happy to hear your feedback!

 

[Loaff]

Speaking for Maintenance here. 

Yes, classes like MFE have reduced the uniqueness of stuff like trash collecting and fixing stuff to an extent, but negligibly. Keep in mind that all these classes were made with the joint cooperation of both branches it affects.

Maintenance still has priority in that MTF has to make sure there are no maintenance available before they can do anything, the exception being if the SCP that is fixed via roll like 106 gets to their penultimate advert. This exception was, again, made with the consent of Maintenance HCMD. 

I've noticed a trend with recent posts of this nature. As previous commenters pointed out, it would have been prudent to check this argument with high command of the branches you are talking about. Instead, you've essentially doomed your suggestion in terms of community support as you have command/HCMD in the mentioned branches posting -support on your suggestion.

A rework of sorts could be good, but HAS to be discussed with high command. Suggestions to change branch stuff will simply not happen without the support of that branch's HCMD. (Exceptions are stuff like OP weapons and the like). 

The only problems I see between Maintenance and MTF at the moment is MTF sometimes neglects to call maintenance and simply fixes stuff. This isn't a very common issue, though. On the contrary, Maintenance's main objective being repair and maintaining containment often makes it so they respond much more actively to self breaches and broken systems than classes like MFE, as MFE is often busy with other MTF objectives.

-support

[Ayaya]

I will only speak on behalf of Maintenance as that is the branch and I only have experience with MFE. I feel MFE is vital in the sites recontaining. There are multiple instances where having a combative Maintenance that spawns in EZ to be able to fix lights and stop 079 that is extremely useful. I'm not sure that exact rules but I know that more often than not people don't stay on Field Expert to do maintenance work. Normally it is used for a while then people go back to other tasks on different Nu-7 jobs. IF this class is removed I feel it would cause a problem in which if LCZ is locked down with SCP's or lockdown is active then it would take forever to reach lockdown. i feel this requires a Maintenance class of some sort to spawn in EZ. which I wouldn't be opposed but MFE fills that roll nicely right now. I feel that most (not all) MTF give us a chance to fix it. 

 

-support

Edited June 2, 2022 by Ayaya

[LilThinMints]

+support

Nu7 does literally everyone's job, no reason to have anything else

[ItzGray]

52 minutes ago, IgnisNuts said:

-Support for removing the classes

I can't speak for the other MTF branches, but for Nu7 we always make sure that if possible we let the non-combatants branches do the RP first if they are available. The FE class was created in the first place because "Technical was never online" and we still use it as a maintenance first if there is no maintenance online. While MCU doesn't have the same reason for it's creation, it still follows the same general rules for Nu7 sub-branches that were based off the non-combatants letting them do rp first, or if they aren't available go ahead and do their job.

If you have any suggestions to change for Nu7's sub-branches, feel free to contact any of us for any suggestions you have! We'd be more than happy to hear your feedback!

 

50 minutes ago, FusionThunder said:

If they have more benefits in the sub branches, why don’t they play them more than the actual rp branches are played? (Excluding medical ofc)

The existence of these classes does nothing currently and while i agree it can seem like a bad thing the branch’s activity doesnt hang in the balance over these classes.

 

[Gyara]

 

1 hour ago, FusionThunder said:

CBRN are only really used when theres an incentive like a mass test for ctf to go to or 610 to recontain for CBRN. I’ve constantly seen in my time as MTF Command/HCMD that sub branches with a purpose like this struggle with activity. 

-Support
You are overestimating the use and activity of multiple sub-branches, such as CBRN and MCU. These classes are rarely used due to the drawbacks and rank/lvl requirements you would need for these. For example, you must be an MSGT+ even to be allowed to get trained for CBRN. It takes at least more than 1 month+ to get to the rank of MSGT, and even if people get trained for the job, there is rarely anyone that plays it, and that is excluding the fact that you can only flag onto the job when 049 or 610 is breached you can't play it whenever. This also goes for MCU; when is the last time you've seen someone play MCU? It rarely gets played due to the level requirement of the job, and it would be much easier to join Medical instead of reaching lvl 50+. It's the same for FE. FE also has its limitations as a sub-branch.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Gyara

[Its Buck]

-support I feel like the issue is the lack of genuine RP to do. Like you can roll to repair something and pray rng is in your favor or you can pick up trash. Not a lot to do. If there were more RP opportunities like door malfunctions. Hell a system that actually has a process to it would be amazing. For example civil gamers hacking system is very unique and user interactive. If things like that could be implemented for maintenance and medical then that would be amazing 

[Goat]

4 minutes ago, Its Buck said:

-support I feel like the issue is the lack of genuine RP to do. Like you can roll to repair something and pray rng is in your favor or you can pick up trash. Not a lot to do. If there were more RP opportunities like door malfunctions. Hell a system that actually has a process to it would be amazing. For example civil gamers hacking system is very unique and user interactive. If things like that could be implemented for maintenance and medical then that would be amazing 

- Support I also personally believe that any legitimate E-11 unit responding to a site emergency would have people in said unit to provide medical attention to members of the unit and the possible ability to do minor repairs. Our job is to recontain SCPs, not giving us the equipment and knowledge to do so seems odd. This is simply my opinion, I follow Buck's thoughts and believe the bigger issue is the lack of genuine RP.

[Domo775]

+support no need for maintenance and medical if mtf jobs can do what the branch’s were made for

[Yato Sensei]

1 hour ago, Loaff said:

Speaking for Maintenance here. 

Yes, classes like MFE have reduced the uniqueness of stuff like trash collecting and fixing stuff to an extent, but negligibly. Keep in mind that all these classes were made with the joint cooperation of both branches it affects.

Maintenance still has priority in that MTF has to make sure there are no maintenance available before they can do anything, the exception being if the SCP that is fixed via roll like 106 gets to their penultimate advert. This exception was, again, made with the consent of Maintenance HCMD. 

I've noticed a trend with recent posts of this nature. As previous commenters pointed out, it would have been prudent to check this argument with high command of the branches you are talking about. Instead, you've essentially doomed your suggestion in terms of community support as you have command/HCMD in the mentioned branches posting -support on your suggestion.

A rework of sorts could be good, but HAS to be discussed with high command. Suggestions to change branch stuff will simply not happen without the support of that branch's HCMD. (Exceptions are stuff like OP weapons and the like). 

The only problems I see between Maintenance and MTF at the moment is MTF sometimes neglects to call maintenance and simply fixes stuff. This isn't a very common issue, though. On the contrary, Maintenance's main objective being repair and maintaining containment often makes it so they respond much more actively to self breaches and broken systems than classes like MFE, as MFE is often busy with other MTF objectives.

-support

Pretty much what Loaf said here. In Nu7, we ALWAYS make sure that maintenance get to containments/gates or whatever needs fixing to let them do it, we will only assist if they request us to do so. I think this has helped improve branch relation between MTF/Maintenance, as for Medical, we can maybe make it so that Medics are the priority on healing other people and we call out for them before an MCU/RCU goes in for the heal? 

- Support

[A Guy]

Huge -Support
What if there is a lockdown, now there is no FE or CE to fix it and its gonna take CS ages to get to.

[Mitchell Hugh]

3 hours ago, drago89115 said:

- support

Currently to my understanding FE and CE are supposed to try and get a maintenance before fixing something they are just their as a backup.

See now here is my issue with this:

From what I recall as a 2LT in Nu7: There was several times where I was just told from X higher up (not naming names) that we shouldn't bother to even ask maintenance and that we should just go repair it ourself, I have ZERO clue if practices like this are still ongoing, But if they ARE, then you can't really say something like this and assume EVERYONE is following this rule.
There are 37 FEs right now excluding high command, even if we assume say... 20% of them will just ignore that rule occasionally or even frequently, That's still a fair chunk of people who will just fix everything and not even bother to ask maintenance or assist them to do it.
Again, not sure if these practices are still common these days, but I'd like to assume so.

I would advocate for a rework or more enforcement on those rules but that's all up to High Command, but regardless, I still call bullshit on the fact that people still follow that rule to a T, cause it was pretty much the opposite of what I saw when I was around.

I'm not gonna be speaking on the side of the MTF medical job since I never played that or even SEEN people really play that.

For the Tl;Dr people: A decent chunk of FE probably don't even FOLLOW that rule regarding asking maintenance, so it's not a perfect iron clad defense, and FE should still be reworked and this whole thing should be DISCUSSED WITH HIGH COMMAND!

But hey, that's just my two cents on all this.

 

[Drago]

15 minutes ago, Mitchell Hugh said:

See now here is my issue with this:

From what I recall as a 2LT in Nu7: There was several times where I was just told from X higher up (not naming names) that we shouldn't bother to even ask maintenance and that we should just go repair it ourself, I have ZERO clue if practices like this are still ongoing, But if they ARE, then you can't really say something like this and assume EVERYONE is following this rule.
There are 37 FEs right now excluding high command, even if we assume say... 20% of them will just ignore that rule occasionally or even frequently, That's still a fair chunk of people who will just fix everything and not even bother to ask maintenance or assist them to do it.
Again, not sure if these practices are still common these days, but I'd like to assume so.

I would advocate for a rework or more enforcement on those rules but that's all up to High Command, but regardless, I still call bullshit on the fact that people still follow that rule to a T, cause it was pretty much the opposite of what I saw when I was around.

I'm not gonna be speaking on the side of the MTF medical job since I never played that or even SEEN people really play that.

For the Tl;Dr people: A decent chunk of FE probably don't even FOLLOW that rule regarding asking maintenance, so it's not a perfect iron clad defense, and FE should still be reworked and this whole thing should be DISCUSSED WITH HIGH COMMAND!

But hey, that's just my two cents on all this.

 

If that is a problem then that is a command issue that has to be addressed just because people are braking the rules doesn't mean that the job needs to be removed but yea this probably should be brought up to the respective high command if it is seem to be a real problem also look what yato said 

Edited June 2, 2022 by drago89115

[PandaInShitpostLand]

2 hours ago, Mitchell Hugh said:

See now here is my issue with this:

From what I recall as a 2LT in Nu7: There was several times where I was just told from X higher up (not naming names) that we shouldn't bother to even ask maintenance and that we should just go repair it ourself, I have ZERO clue if practices like this are still ongoing, But if they ARE, then you can't really say something like this and assume EVERYONE is following this rule.
There are 37 FEs right now excluding high command, even if we assume say... 20% of them will just ignore that rule occasionally or even frequently, That's still a fair chunk of people who will just fix everything and not even bother to ask maintenance or assist them to do it.
Again, not sure if these practices are still common these days, but I'd like to assume so.

I would advocate for a rework or more enforcement on those rules but that's all up to High Command, but regardless, I still call bullshit on the fact that people still follow that rule to a T, cause it was pretty much the opposite of what I saw when I was around.

I'm not gonna be speaking on the side of the MTF medical job since I never played that or even SEEN people really play that.

For the Tl;Dr people: A decent chunk of FE probably don't even FOLLOW that rule regarding asking maintenance, so it's not a perfect iron clad defense, and FE should still be reworked and this whole thing should be DISCUSSED WITH HIGH COMMAND!

But hey, that's just my two cents on all this.

 

Barely anyone follows it unless there are maint online. For medical jobs they dont gotta ask medical to drag their asses to a battle but surgeries always are prioritized for medical and the MTF medic job simply helps with rolls.

[K I W I]

-support
If Rp is the backing on why utility needs it's uniqueness then how about giving maintenance more roleplay related stuff to do rather than stripping other branches parts away, plus I don't really see how running to a broken door and calling an admin to roll "Rp", other than handing our armor that's maintenances goto is fixing stuff, I know it's kinda up to the player to create the Rp but with the way the server is set up right now you have to do things as quick as you can or you might get killed/caught by CI while repairing a door or a SCP could come around the corner and instakill you. Maybe a good suggestion would have something to do with changing the way combat is on the server or allowing SCP's to communicate with humans without it being 'teaming', like people playing as SCPs have to genuinely act like SCP's as in 049 or 079 trying to interact with humans other than following their MOTD to a tee, or CI trying to get information out of someone on the go instead of cuffing them and dragging them along for 30 minutes, seems like everyone is super stiff on the rules and is too scared/lazy to seek out Rp in terms of beating the bottom line of what the rules say. Not saying breaking the rules but maybe laying off the bare minimum of what you're allowed to do, just some thoughts.

Edited June 5, 2022 by K I W W I

[Coltable]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:29 PM, Loaff said:

Speaking for Maintenance here. 

Yes, classes like MFE have reduced the uniqueness of stuff like trash collecting and fixing stuff to an extent, but negligibly. Keep in mind that all these classes were made with the joint cooperation of both branches it affects.

Maintenance still has priority in that MTF has to make sure there are no maintenance available before they can do anything, the exception being if the SCP that is fixed via roll like 106 gets to their penultimate advert. This exception was, again, made with the consent of Maintenance HCMD. 

I've noticed a trend with recent posts of this nature. As previous commenters pointed out, it would have been prudent to check this argument with high command of the branches you are talking about. Instead, you've essentially doomed your suggestion in terms of community support as you have command/HCMD in the mentioned branches posting -support on your suggestion.

A rework of sorts could be good, but HAS to be discussed with high command. Suggestions to change branch stuff will simply not happen without the support of that branch's HCMD. (Exceptions are stuff like OP weapons and the like). 

The only problems I see between Maintenance and MTF at the moment is MTF sometimes neglects to call maintenance and simply fixes stuff. This isn't a very common issue, though. On the contrary, Maintenance's main objective being repair and maintaining containment often makes it so they respond much more actively to self breaches and broken systems than classes like MFE, as MFE is often busy with other MTF objectives.

-support

Couldnt of said it better, any jobs which use features related to other branches are almost 99% of the time agreed upon by siteadmin/HCMD, I will say if a HCMD feels like they agree with this post and wants to change something id be happy to do so/look into a fix.

[Coltable]

Denied. The SCP-RP SMT has decided against adding this suggestion for performance reasons, the benefit to the server, or another unstated reason.