Player Report on Phil

[1stSavagerY]

Your In-Game Name:  1stSavagerY
Your SteamID:  STEAM_0:0:106502723
Players In-Game Name:  Phil
Players SteamID:  STEAM_0:0:86507562
Date:  11/9/2021 Time:  Around 12:40-1:30
More information and what should be done:  As I was obviously joking and went and closed the door anyways after saying "I don't care", along with the fact that 912 can only arrest gensec/mtf who are rulebreaking, and forgetting something in the SOP is not an MOTD rulebreak, 912 is not able to enforce this.  Moreover, he was going against MTF orders even though in the MOTD says "SCP-912 must comply with any orders given to it by GENSEC or MTF personnel."  Not only that, but it also clearly states that "Intentionally interrupting, minging, ruining, or disrupting events is prohibited," which cuff-minging would fall under as it's a form of minging.  Although I do admit that we were trying to cuff him as well, which is not allowed, this was more due to the fact that he started to arrest others.  Because of these clear rule violations, I think that the offender should be warned.
Evidence:  https://medal.tv/clips/70974612/d13377vZAlM6?invite=cr-MSxrWkQsMjg3ODQ5Nyw
 

[Phillers]

Alright. I'm going to go through this step by step, and for starters I'll also show my POV of this event. 
My POV : https://medal.tv/clips/70974439/d1337DDSJicP?invite=cr-MSxCWGgsNjY3NjUzNyw

I'll use timestamps from my video instead of his, for clarity. 
00:00 - 00:05 : Me standing around, nothing of interest.
00:05 - 00:12 : I give the first warning that he violated one of his SOP rules, as he left the door in D-Block intersection open.
00:12 - 00:28 : I try to drag his attention, to make sure he realises that I am trying to warn him.
00:28 - 00:32 : Savage says, and I quote "I don't give a fuck." Savage says that he was joking in this statement. I believe it to be understandable to anyone watching this clip that the way he chose to convey this information was not very joke-like. After that, I move to arrest him.
00:32 - 00:49 : I arrest Savage, and get arrested in turn by Nu7. Now, Savage says that he was closing the door as I arrested him. For clarification, I was not originally reffering to the door to D-Block itself, but rather the door in D-Block intersection. I believe this might have been a bit of a miscommunication due to when savage could see my first bind. Either way, I was already arresting him by the time he had closed the door.

Alright, so to simplify all of that into a simple chain of events : 
Savage leaves a door open, violating his SOP rules. > I decide to warn him to close this door > I try to drag his attention by smashing the barricades, and single tapping himself a few times > He turns around, says "I don't give a fuck" > I go to arrest him > He closes the door just as I arrest him.

That's the whole initial section of the clip. Now, let's take a look at the second section.

This part starts at roughly 01:15 of Savage's clip. It shows MTF releasing me, and me promptly trying to arrest the individual who cuffed me. Now, if we take Savage's opinion on this topic (SCP-912 can only enforce MOTD rules) then by his own admittance I would have all the reasoning I would need to arrest that individual, as per MOTD SCP-912 cannot be cuffed. If we take my opinion, which I confess is largely based upon 912 lore and less so MOTD, 912 is an anomaly which largely acts like a member of law enforcement. I believe that any member of law enforcement who was just assaulted and tied up would attempt to arrest his assaulter as soon as he is able to. Because of that, I attempted to detain the individual who cuffed me.

After this point, the clip turns slightly hectic. However, every individual who was stunned/attacked with a baton after this point did one of the following : 
 - Tried to cuff me
 - Stunsticked me
 - Attacked me in whichever way (Hard to see, but the Field Experts slapped me with their flashlights)

All 3 of those would give me sufficient reasoning to respond with force, as per previously established reasonings.
As I think is easily visible in this part of the clip, I was actively trying to get out of that situation as I no longer believed anyone was getting any form of enjoyment out of it. 
 

That all out of the way, let's take a look at all the rule infractions Savage claims I commited.

"along with the fact that 912 can only arrest gensec/mtf who are rulebreaking, and forgetting something in the SOP is not an MOTD rulebreak, 912 is not able to enforce this. "

912's MOTD rules state the following : "SCP-912 may attempt to arrest rulebreakers and bring them to GENSEC or MTF personnel."
I took that to mean SOP rule breaking. Not MOTD rule breaking. I simply think it is way clearer and more logical that that line of the rulebook refers to SOP's, and not to MOTD, 912 being a Law-Enforcing SCP after all. I checked with Dang on this, and while I fully understand if he wishes to clarify his ruling on this matter after this report, he agreed with that. You violated an SOP rule, and then flaunted it in my face that you would not follow it even after being notified of doing so. I had no way whatshowever to know that you were joking, or that you were intending to go close the door.

Also, the whole argument that "912 should enforce MOTD, not SOP" is moot irregardless, due to rule 2 of the general rules which states : 
"Do not FailRP, which is doing things that would be unrealistic, or not consistent with what your character would do. This includes failing to follow orders from those who outrank you, failing to comply with department SOP, or failing to follow job specific rules"
So even IF I had to enforce MOTD, I would still have been allowed to arrest you for the SOP violation.

" Moreover, he was going against MTF orders even though in the MOTD says "SCP-912 must comply with any orders given to it by GENSEC or MTF personnel." "
Those of you who have seen the clip will notice that nowhere during this entire situation was I given ANY orders by GENSEC or MTF personnel. If I was given orders, I would have complied with them as I am required to per MOTD, but alas, I wasn't. 


"Not only that, but it also clearly states that "Intentionally interrupting, minging, ruining, or disrupting events is prohibited," which cuff-minging would fall under as it's a form of minging."
I do not believe that there was any member of the event team hosting an event that included you. Because of that, this rule does not apply.
I also think that saying cuff minging (Which, for clarity, I did not do. All of my arrests had reasons behind them that hold up in RP.) is a bit of a stretch.

 

Now, I would kindly like to remind everyone seeing this post of one simple thing : 

This report is based off of CURRENT motd. Not what we think MOTD should be, or what we wish it was. According to current MOTD, I did not violate any of the rules. If you have a suggestion for a rules-change in light of this report, take it to the suggestions section of the forums, not here.

Besides ALL of the above, this sit was already handled in game by a staff member.

I will be editing in below this to give replies to what others have said, as to prevent clutter in the comment section.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Phillers

[Its Buck]

-support

Any other job that works within a “Branch” has to follow the SOP regardless of whether or not the person on said job is within that branch:

IE

Nu7 quartermaster:

CI Heavy

Both are required to follow the SOP for that branch even though virtually anyone can flag on that job.

If a SOP rule is broken that is a broken rule.

if an MOTD rule was broken then it should be a staff matter not a 912 matter

[1stSavagerY]

1)  You could very obviously tell I was joking by my tone, along with the fact that I went over and closed the door before he had even cuffed me, he continued to do so even after the door was closed.  I had counted almost a second and a half between the time I had closed the door and the time 912 pulled out his handcuffs.  The fact that I went and closed the door anyways should've been obvious enough, so continuing to arrest someone with Level 4 Clearance after closing said door would be considered going against the foundation, as the cuffs hadn't been taken out until after the door had closed.

2)  Lots of people leave some doors open so they're able to have a ranged advantage over D-Class, SCP's, or CI, this was no different, and although the SOP states to close doors just in general, there's nothing preventing someone to keep open a door for a short time so that that individual can use the longer hallways as a tactical advantage, which most people (both on CI and MTF) do.

3)  There was a staff in the TS when this happened, heard it all go down, and was stating how cuffing someone for something like leaving a door open, which again isn't specifically isn't in the MOTD, is cuff-minging

4)  The MOTD doesn't specifically state whether or not "event" means an event from a member of the Event Team or events as in "event; noun; a thing that happens," or more specifically, the flow of events that occur.

5)  The MOTD doesn't state rulebreakers as in SOP rulebreaks, which is managed by the MTF/Gensec branch itself, not an SCP.

6)  To the best of my knowledge, 912 has no clearance level, and in fact follows Gensec/MTF orders, not ordering Level 4+ clearance personnel around.  Therefore, if I have an reason within the RP to keep a door open, I'm allowed to do so (with the knowledge that I will close it sometime in the near future (ex: a minute or two).  

7)  Classes like quartermaster still fall under the Nu7 SOP, and last I checked (which was under a minute ago) there was nothing in the Nu7 SOP that allowed 912 to order personnel or SF around.

Edited November 9, 2021 by 1stSavagerY

[Phillers]

I said above that I would edit the original post, however due to it's length that is no longer possible, because of that I will simply be posting edits here instead.

 

EDIT 1 : 
In regards to Savage's points below : 
1. As I believe I made abundantly clear in the initial posting, I could not tell that you were joking. In general, when people say "I don't give a fuck" they are not joking, they are being insulting.  The matter that you are L4 personnel is moot, there is no distinction between L1 and L4 personnel asfar as Nu7 SOP or 912 MOTD is concerned. As for me cuffing you after the door was closed, I had already begun arresting you by this point. Irregardless, it was the other door I was refrencing, as I said above.

2. Lots of people do leave doors open for a tactical advantage, that much I agree with. I generally leave those people alone. Savage however, was not doing so. He opened the first door, then walked off into D-Block through the 2nd door and started B-Hopping. That was not done for any type of tactical advantage, and anyone will have a hard time arguing that fact. Certainly since this is D-Block door Savage is reffering to, a door that even GENSEC OFC's know should always be closed, unless there is a firing line right outside of it.

3. I wouldn't know if there actually was a staff member in Ts3 at that time. However, judging of the fact that they both only heard Savage's side of the story, was not the staff member that took the sit, and I presume not a member of JMT/SMT, their opinion is moot here.

4. I believe this is nitpicking words, as in general when the rules say "Event" they mean one hosted by ET. But even in the case that this statement is correct,  the event in question would have been me arresting you. I was not minging in that regard, as I was simply following my MOTD prescribed guidelines. Unless the argument here is that Savage B-Hopping through D-Block was the event, which  I doubt.

5. MOTD States that 912 can arrest rule-breakers. There are only 2 types of rules on the server, MOTD, or SOP. 
If 912 can arrest for SOP Violations : Savage broke the SOP.
If 912 can arrest for MOTD Violations : MOTD States that you have to follow SOP (Rule 2, General rules) which Savage broke. 
Either way, I am permitted to arrest the individual who broke SOP.

6. This argument is just another loop of argument 1&2, read there to see my response of it.

7. I was not ordering Savage, I was alerting him that he violated an SOP rule which would result in his arrest. My reasoning for arrest was the SOP violation. My reasoning for arrest was not him failing to follow any order to close the door, as I never gave such an order.

Also, apologies in advance to the Forums Diplomat who is inevitably going to take a look at this at some point, I think this will be a bit of a clutter.

Also, Savage, I think this was really just a misunderstanding caused by an unclearly written rule. We can just drop this, as frankly I don't think this is worth your time.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Phillers
Spelling

[1stSavagerY]

14 minutes ago, Phillers said:

I said above that I would edit the original post, however due to it's length that is no longer possible, because of that I will simply be posting edits here instead.

 

EDIT 1 : 
In regards to Savage's points below : 
1. As I believe I made abundantly clear in the initial posting, I could not tell that you were joking. In general, when people say "I don't give a fuck" they are not joking, they are being insulting.  The matter that you are L4 personnel is moot, there is no distinction between L1 and L4 personnel asfar as Nu7 SOP or 912 MOTD is concerned. As for me cuffing you after the door was closed, I had already begun arresting you by this point. Irregardless, it was the other door I was refrencing, as I said above.

2. Lots of people do leave doors open for a tactical advantage, that much I agree with. I generally leave those people alone. Savage however, was not doing so. He opened the first door, then walked off into D-Block through the 2nd door and started B-Hopping. That was not done for any type of tactical advantage, and anyone will have a hard time arguing that fact. Certainly since this is D-Block door Savage is reffering to, a door that even GENSEC OFC's know should always be closed, unless there is a firing line right outside of it.

3. I wouldn't know if there actually was a staff member in Ts3 at that time. However, judging of the fact that they both only heard Savage's side of the story, was not the staff member that took the sit, and I presume not a member of JMT/SMT, their opinion is moot here.

4. I believe this is nitpicking words, as in general when the rules say "Event" they mean one hosted by ET. But even in the case that this statement is correct,  the event in question would have been me arresting you. I was not minging in that regard, as I was simply following my MOTD prescribed guidelines. Unless the argument here is that Savage B-Hopping through D-Block was the event, which  I doubt.

5. MOTD States that 912 can arrest rule-breakers. There are only 2 types of rules on the server, MOTD, or SOP. 
If 912 can arrest for SOP Violations : Savage broke the SOP.
If 912 can arrest for MOTD Violations : MOTD States that you have to follow SOP (Rule 2, General rules) which Savage broke. 
Either way, I am permitted to arrest the individual who broke SOP.

6. This argument is just another loop of argument 1&2, read there to see my response of it.

7. I was not ordering Savage, I was alerting him that he violated an SOP rule which would result in his arrest. My reasoning for arrest was the SOP violation. My reasoning for arrest was not him failing to follow any order to close the door, as I never gave such an order.

Also, apologies in advance to the Forums Diplomat who is inevitably going to take a look at this at some point, I think this will be a bit of a clutter.

Also, Savage, I think this was really just a misunderstanding caused by an unclearly written rule. We can just drop this, as frankly I don't think this is worth your time.

It really isn’t tbh, and I think that the rules should definitely be expanded upon, especially on topics like this as there is no clear line or rule stating what cannot or can be done.  It would honestly do more good to have the rule clarified as a single player report inevitably lead to nothing being done, regardless of the outcome.  the only major issue i had is that you had arrested me and didn’t even stop to ask why i had left said door open, as I did have a reason and i had gotten distracted with talking to people over teamspeak, and all of this could’ve been avoided if both of us had communicated that better, which I was at fault to as well.

Edited November 9, 2021 by 1stSavagerY

[Demon Dice]

 

                                             Forum Diplomat Message 

Please keep comments to either a + or - Support and state the reason for your opinion Thank you.

[recon]

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

[Dick Grayson]

10 minutes ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

[CyClone]

2 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Bulborb]

2 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

Yeah tbh the server is more about combat than RP

[Sprink]

4 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Sixx]

4 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

Phil: *Actually RPs*

This Guy: "I DONT GIVE A FUCK"

[Grеg]

+/- 
Even after reading all this I don't think either of them are in the wrong. 
I believe it should just be dropped.

[Jack S]

5 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Average Pipebomb enjoyer]

7 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Mary]

3 hours ago, Grеg said:

+/- 
Even after reading all this I don't think either of them are in the wrong. 
I believe it should just be dropped.

 

[new rowphin]

10 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

He sternly pointed!!, but imo everything should be dropped, i can't see a reason in which any of u were in the wrong

[DumpTruck]

11 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Scooty]

4 hours ago, DumpTruck said:

 

Im actually glad to see some RP out of a 912 player for once other than "See person, Hit person, handover person" Good on you phill
RRH Guardian Alpha 22-E11 2LT

[FusionThunder]

-support

sit was already handled

i will add tho that cuffing someone because they didnt close a door is cringe

[[GL] Inaccurate]

+Support Phil is minge and must be banned

 

Actually -Support tho

Edited November 10, 2021 by [GL] Inaccurate

[OWNED]

22 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Alexxxx]

22 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

 

[Zarl]

22 hours ago, recon said:

- Support

Sit was already handled in game.

Besides that, 912 was doing RP which YOU RUDLY replied to. Your tone was not joking it was, "I don't give a fuck about what you are saying" not "I don't care lol". 

Also, Good on you Phil for doing some actual RP and not just being a gensec robot. It kind of annoys me to see someone who is trying to RP be told that nobody cares and that they should just do combat.

Yes. Also please try to keep attitudes professional when on SF and don't try to use your clearance as grounds to why what an SCP says doesn't affect you.