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General Suggestion - Nerf Riot Control - Accepted


Eris

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6 minutes ago, verycrankyredhead said:

I change my mind i say Riot Control can keep there thermals but NCO's shouldn't its destroying CI and then they have another wave to deal with

This is a great compromise imho

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-Support

Before the map change, I would completely agree with you that Riot Control shouldn't have thermals as it would absolutely demolish CI Infils. However, with the addition of the new map brings that huge black barricade in front of the D Block elevator. If Riot Control lose thermals, Infils would become INVINCIBLE behind that barricade as nobody other than Riot Control and D Class would be able to go over there, and Riot Control wouldn't be able to see them without thermals. It's not like camping behind the elevator as that only gave infils a small portion of cover while the black barricade is a LITERAL WALL.

I would support this suggestion if the big black barricade is removed, but as of now its a big no from me. Without having to worry about Riot Control, Infils would EASILY be able to take down the entire group of security in D Block. So basically, if an Infil makes it to D Block and they aren't a complete idiot, D Block is pretty much guaranteed to fall. Allow me to remind you that D Block falling also takes away RP from Research as they need access to D Class for a large majority of their tests. Right now, if this suggestion gets accepted, it basically screws over all of security.

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 -Support

The point of Riot Control to have thermals is so GenSec isn't defenseless against CI Infs in D-Block. It isn't like Riot Control will be wandering around LCZ looking for CI, they will be in D-Block and if there's an infill GenSec actually have a chance to defend themselves instead of getting absolutely demolished. If GenSec are sitting in D-Block and getting picked off constantly by an infiltrator what would make them even want to stay on the server if they just die over and over again to someone they stand 0 chance against. Also the Ithaca is GARBAGE especially considering all the D-Class CCs, powerful donator weapons, and CS:GO knives it makes sense for them to have a good shotgun.

 

When it comes to NCOs having thermals here is my reasoning for adding them. Yesterday when I was on the server a SM was leading a patrol of 3 other people and came across a CI Inf. They some the Inf for a second but couldn't call thermals or do anything about it! The inf then proceeded the pick the patrol off 1 by one and the SM with the multiple enlisted were helpless. After some with my fellow HCMD and some SA+ they brought up a point which is " I would be fine with it as long as they can enter HCZ they could get thermals any job that patrols there should have them incase of invis SCPs" which makes a lot of sense so when they are escorting research/patrolling LCZ and come across 966 they can actually defend themselves! Thus after doing some more considering I added thermals to SGT+ since they do escorts in HCZ. 

 

You have to remember that you need to be sneaky when on inf. When there isn't much MTF online like yesterday when there was a max of like 12 and for later in the night was 3 across all the branches GenSec had no way to defend from CI Infs and 966. It isn't like Security will be calling thermals willy nilly, you have to mess up in some way for them to actually call them HOWEVER I will be removing Thermals from Junior NCOs but they will remain on Senior NCOs (MSGT+).

 

Now I will address some points people made in this thread,

34 minutes ago, verycrankyredhead said:

I change my mind i say Riot Control can keep there thermals but NCO's shouldn't its destroying CI and then they have another wave to deal with

I will be removing them from Junior NCOs. I think people that spend weeks in Security deserve to have Thermals. By doing this I effectively just took Thermals away from 70 people in my branch. 

45 minutes ago, Eris said:

 Even though they're the lesser of MTF, they shouldn't be on the same level whatsoever. 

We aren't a "Lesser MTF", get that stigma out of your head. We are our own branch and do separate things to what MTF does, just because we are the main branch that leads people to MTF doesnt make us a lesser version of them. 

51 minutes ago, Yato Sensei said:

Mentality of a good portion GenSec players. "MtF iS iNaCtive sO we NeeD tO dO eVryThing By OurSelvEs". I'm sorry mate but Juggernauts have thermals, now every SGT+ also has them. Removing them off an easy to pick up class won't do much if there is enough high-ranking GenSec ( Everyone knows its not hard to reach SGT ). And maybe if you are having such troubles with Infils standing in the back of D block sniping, you should get more people to flag onto Security Snipers or allow people to use the armory to buy snipers, that ain't hard at all, especially with a lot of people in GenSec being SGT+. As I stated before, all you need is coordination, it's not that hard. 2 Snipers at the upper platforms watching the back of D block while riot control rush inside and storm the Infil (Thermals will be called by an NCO+ Of course). You'd have the infil down in a matter of seconds. The point is that having another class be able to call thermals is a bit janky and is starting to merge branches slightly. Next thing we know is that LCPL get to call thermals. 
Also don't come up with the "Get Good" crap. That has nothing to do with the fact that when there is 6 riot controls vs 1 Infil, you can't outplay them even if you tried your best.
GenSec should be strong in numbers, not in power. That's why you are the largest branch on the server. Use that to your advantage.

Well MTF aren't inactive however a good amount of the time there aren't many of them online to deal with all the SCPs breaches and CI raid and GenSec needs to defend themselves / help MTF. I've again removed Thermals from Junior NCOs which removes it from 70+ people in GenSec however if someone spends weeks of their time working there way up in GenSec, Protect Research, and do patrols, I believe they need Thermals. If infils are sniping in the back of D-Block  Snipers don't have Thermals to combat the Infs and the infs can snipe, cloak, and reposition. The strategy you suggest sounds good however we  cannot do that and there can only be a max of 5 Riot Control online not 6 and there can be up to 2 infs. I'm not sure why Ape said "Get Good" and I will be addressing that mentality at the Security Main Meeting. 

 

2 hours ago, Yato Sensei said:

Mate riot control is supposed to deal with R I O T S. It's in the name. MTF are the one who deal with CI. Its not impossible at all to kill infils, you got GenSec snipers, Juggernauts and SGT+ can call thermals. Coordination is something important in this case.
+ Support
GenSec is not MTF. Don't merge branches.
Also can we talk about how Riot Control is absolutely busted? 6 available slots, can be joined very early on, training is literally 10 words and you are given the job and it has a XM + automatic pistol.  

MTF Cannot cross the Blue Line to deal with infs that sit in the back and snipe. Riot are litterally the ONLY ONES who can pass thatline and deal with up to 2 Infs, and remember the slots are usually never full and Juggs cant cross the blue line and Snipers don't have Thermals!! Thermals isnt an MTF exclusive and Security need a way to defend against CI Infs that love to camp GenSec because they don't have thermals! 

 

2 hours ago, [GL] Fizz-y Soda said:

Riot control should be focused on Controlling Riots. Hence the name. lol

However, I was informed yesterday that gensec have thermals now, so removing them from RC doesn't really matter all that much. It just adds an unnecessary step for that class which would feel degrading. Also, if an Infil can chill in d block forever, that'll get boring fast. There are other fun things to do on Infil. 

I mostly support the changing of the weapon. They are kinda strong right now. Removing thermals from RC only is kinda dumb imo.

+Support for weapon only.

Infs usually like staying in D-Block for awhile to kill GenSec over and over again, it isn't fair for a huge branch to be this defenseless against 2 people. Also the ithica isn't that good at all, which is why we changed it and the main reasons Riot Control is sooo buff is because of the mining system and apparently it will come back so when D-Class get their hands on ARs and shotguns Riot Control needs to be strong. However if the mining system doesnt return I will nerd Riot Control.

5 hours ago, General bacon said:

+support
Gensec should not have thermals its not like there is a d-class croaker class and they are not a MTF so there is no real point for it
And riot control with XM is too op right now so a nerf to the Ithaca (which is still a good gun) would make sense and be more fair

Refer to my previous statement. 

Here is my opinion on this matter, please read it all to understand why I added thermals to NCOs and Riot Control in the first place. However because of everyone opinions here I will be removing them from Junior NCOs which removes it from 70+ people in Security. 

 

~HOS Sixx

 

Edit: Also when it comes to the Thermals part of this suggestion, you could've just talked to me about it in TS or DMs and I'm sure we could've came to a middle ground just like how Security came to a middle ground with MTF when we wanted private comms. 

Edited by Sixx
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+ Support

I'm in favor of making a change to the thermals requirements. It kind of came as a surprise to me, even as a MAJ, when it appeared on our SOP yesterday. Like Yato said, SGT isn't exactly the hardest rank to achieve. If we were to give thermals to anyone (outside of sub branches) I'd say give them to MSGT+, or anyone who can flag onto the Senior NCO job. It restricts about 3/5 of our current NCOs from calling it, and also gives it to our NCOs who've proven themselves the most. 

Moving on. Yato stated that 6 riot control at their former power couldn't take out 1 infil. The reason for this is simple: RC didn't have thermals. I remember you also saying something about 2 snipers holding the back of D-Block while a riot control goes behind the blue line to kill the infil. Until just a few seconds ago I was under the impression that since Riot Control didn't have thermals they weren't able to actually see the infils and as such the infils could cloak before the riot control could find them. I was just informed this is false, and if someone in Gensec calls thermals everyone in Gensec has thermals until they expire or are called off, even our OFCs. Next time we deal with people like this we'll start making reports, but for the most part that's what the problem was; the infil would shoot Security or MTF then run behind the D-Block elevator, and when a riot control was sent over to kill them they would cloak so they couldn't be seen. Moving forward we'll deal with them effectively.

To end this off, APE, in my opinion you were unnecessarily rude in your post. Yato, for the most part when we have our numbers you'll always see 1 or 2 snipers on. When our Enlisted ask to go to armory chances are the NCOs will let them. We do what we can and sometimes what comes of that isn't enough.

Overall, this change was a surprise and I'd be fine with Riot Control's thermals being removed, and the SGT requirement being moved up to MSGT. I don't feel any other change is necessary as of right now, however, as it has only been a day since the change occurred and we've barely let it take its course. (Definitely should move the SGT thing to MSGT, I feel that's a given)

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1 hour ago, [GL] loudyfam (Jack S) said:

Instead of just quoting someone I want to say some things.

Firstly, Infill have been a huge issue on off hours, camping in the back making it almost impossible for newer enlisted and NCOs.

Second, You were just given a huge black barricade that gives you a massive amount of cover and a long range for you to snipe down riot control before they can even touch you. I have seen all day you have been killing riot control while rioting, I see no issue with an XM, when you can 4 shot them with a wingman.

Third, We gave thermals since mostly infill were camping at the back of the ledge targeting command and NCOs to stop us from calling thermals, then cloaking and hiding back in the corner. We got thermals to combat that especially since now you guys have a huge barricade to help support the infil from each side. 

It also gives you an area to disengage and have your team cover you while you heal and they keep riot control back, last I checked it takes around 10 or so minutes of mining and couple thousand in cash to get a Mag-7 and you can hold D-block with bunches of those.

We also got over-run by you earlier today by you just rushing, riot control being an enlisted based class makes them subject to cross-firing me and other GenSec, therefore making it easier for you.

So stealth Ops Cause D Class Problems should dclass get Thermals .

It causes Problems in the off hours  cause its off hours that shouldn't be a reason to make the have thermals 24/7 also Riot control is the only shotgun class with out a Proper Training  I would understand if wardens since its more reserved and has a limit got thermals but a class where  they promote just to get more then only training you get is someone just say you cant leave d block and sends them off to help them take back d-block .

 

 

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Just now, Jameshi34 said:

(Definitely should move the SGT thing to MSGT, I feel that's a given)

I've already done that. 

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1 minute ago, [GL] Godbert Manderville said:

So stealth Ops Cause D Class Problems should dclass get Thermals .

It causes Problems in the off hours  cause its off hours that shouldn't be a reason to make the have thermals 24/7 also Riot control is the only shotgun class with out a Proper Training  I would understand if wardens since its more reserved and has a limit got thermals but a class where  they promote just to get more then only training you get is someone just say you cant leave d block and sends them off to help them take back d-block .

 

 

CI can't shoot d-class unless provoked... as far as I am aware

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2 minutes ago, [GL] Godbert Manderville said:

So stealth Ops Cause D Class Problems should dclass get Thermals .

It causes Problems in the off hours  cause its off hours that shouldn't be a reason to make the have thermals 24/7 also Riot control is the only shotgun class with out a Proper Training  I would understand if wardens since its more reserved and has a limit got thermals but a class where  they promote just to get more then only training you get is someone just say you cant leave d block and sends them off to help them take back d-block .

 

 

The difference is D-class are prisoners, they would never have thermals.

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Just now, [GL] Godbert Manderville said:

Riot control is Riot control not Anti Infil

They are the only Class that can cross the Blue line to actually counter an Inf. No other class including all MTF and all of Security classes cant cross it. With the new Black barrier CI Infs can camp GenSec even harder now. 

 

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Just now, Jameshi34 said:


I also talked to Starstep who said that if anyone who can call thermals does call them, it gives the thermals to the people who don't have them.

If this is true then I will remove Thermals from Riot Control.  

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Just now, Sixx said:

They are the only Class that can cross the Blue line to actually counter an Inf. No other class including all MTF and all of Security classes cant cross it. With the new Black barrier CI Infs can camp GenSec even harder now. 

 

As stated by me previously. You don't Need Riot Controls to deal with them. You have Security Snipers and NCO+ can give armory permission so you can get more people with Snipers. Should try doing more PTs with GenSec on how to deal with personal behind blue line, focus on Sniper Training and Riot Rushing. You will have little to no problems then. 

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2 minutes ago, [GL] Godbert Manderville said:

And all you need is 1 person to call thermals

 

That is false. After looking over the MOTD and talking to starstep that rule only applies to MTF, not Security. 

 

As it states under the Foundation Staff Section, Rule 9, Sub-Section 2;

"One MTF member adverting thermals allows all other MTF members to activate their thermals for the same reason."

If that rule was true then I wouldn't give Riot Control Thermals. 

Edited by Sixx

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D Class just got the barricade right in front of the elevator. Why do you guys need another buff?  The reason we allowed riot control to use thermals was NOT so they could patrol the LCZ, killing  CI. We added it because CI Infils are OP in D Block and there is nearly nothing we can do against them. And now, CI can use that barricade, making them incredibly powerful. To finish this off, you want to give us ANOTHER nerf by removing one of our guns. I'm failing to understand why.

-Support

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-support

 

- Riot control struggles to control d block even with XMs due to the last update. Their weapon was never a problem and it isn't now especially because of the new length of D block.  XM has a very limited range. Basically, if the RIOT CONTROL couldn't handle riots because they had weaker weapons, what would be the point of the class?

 

-Riot Control were given Thermals to get rid of infils in D block.

 Remember that infils are invisible and they DON'T have to camp the d block at all times in random places. Especially that the D block is now way bigger and gives more opportunities for infils to hide. I've seen infils hide in d block countless of times.

Edited by Eem
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32 minutes ago, Yato Sensei said:

As stated by me previously. You don't Need Riot Controls to deal with them. You have Security Snipers and NCO+ can give armory permission so you can get more people with Snipers. Should try doing more PTs with GenSec on how to deal with personal behind blue line, focus on Sniper Training and Riot Rushing. You will have little to no problems then. 

Yes, you do need Riot Control to deal with them. A bunch of snipers can't combat an enemy that they can't see. If Riot Control doesn't have thermals, then Infil's could just hide behind the black barricade until 5 minutes pass by and come out cloaked again. Even if a Gensec CMD member activated thermals while they were in D Block, an Infil would just stay cloaked behind the black barricade since Riot Control wouldn't have thermals to see them if they came over.

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1 minute ago, Spud said:

Yes, you do need Riot Control to deal with them. A bunch of snipers can't combat an enemy that they can't see. If Riot Control doesn't have thermals, then Infil's could just hide behind the black barricade until 5 minutes pass by and come out cloaked again. Even if a Gensec CMD member activated thermals while they were in D Block, an Infil would just stay cloaked behind the black barricade since Riot Control wouldn't have thermals to see them if they came over.

Yes yes yes yes yes

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49 minutes ago, Sixx said:

If this is true then I will remove Thermals from Riot Control.  

That is correct so even if an MTF in EZ calls thermals everyone will get it I think they just forgot too mention all branch’s that can be mentioned in there because it was too clear up confusion on if someone has called thermals or not

Edited by pixalgamer99
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